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Re: Another Bonds Blog

Postby stepsinsc » Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:34 pm

mweir145 wrote:
stepsinsc wrote:
No, and that's a failure to elaborate further on my part. The sad part isn't the he wanted to be the best, it's what he did to become the best when he had already attained greatness.

You mean he started doing the thing that was basically the norm in baseball for several years? That's the sad part? I can't say if I was in his situation I would have gone about it any differently.


Really? If you were one of the greatest players in modern times, already with millions of dollars, and one of only a handful of men to win 3 MVPs, you'd also be so narcissistic, egotistical, and jealous that you'd cheat and risk your health to get the spotlight back on you? Even though you could be arguably the best all-around player solely due to your natural god-given talent?
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Re: Another Bonds Blog

Postby Tavish » Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:41 pm

stepsinsc wrote:The biggest of which is that Aaron admitted to using them in 1968, but they were not made illegal until 1970.

Just as clarification, they were made illegal in 1959. At least illegal in the same sense as anabolic steroids are in that they are illegal to use without a prescription.
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Re: Another Bonds Blog

Postby stepsinsc » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:02 pm

Tavish wrote:
stepsinsc wrote:The biggest of which is that Aaron admitted to using them in 1968, but they were not made illegal until 1970.

Just as clarification, they were made illegal in 1959. At least illegal in the same sense as anabolic steroids are in that they are illegal to use without a prescription.


This is coming from online sources only, so take it for what it's worth. But Only amphetamine inhalers were banned in 1959. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine. But amphetamines themselves weren't banned until 1970. http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ampheta ... meline.php.
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Re: Another Bonds Blog

Postby mweir145 » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:03 pm

stepsinsc wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
stepsinsc wrote:
No, and that's a failure to elaborate further on my part. The sad part isn't the he wanted to be the best, it's what he did to become the best when he had already attained greatness.

You mean he started doing the thing that was basically the norm in baseball for several years? That's the sad part? I can't say if I was in his situation I would have gone about it any differently.


Really? If you were one of the greatest players in modern times, already with millions of dollars, and one of only a handful of men to win 3 MVPs, you'd also be so narcissistic, egotistical, and jealous that you'd cheat and risk your health to get the spotlight back on you? Even though you could be arguably the best all-around player solely due to your natural god-given talent?

Some people like Bonds don't want to settle with being one of the best, and why should they? They want to be at the top of them all. It's that very attitude that makes these guys major leaguers in the first place. It's that kind of drive (and yes, some degree of a large ego is required) that people like you or me will never know or understand. Looking down on somebody for wanting to be the best, and going about it through hard work to get there, is horribly short-sighted. And how exactly is something cheating if it's not agaisnt the rules and everybody else is doing the same thing?
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Re: Another Bonds Blog

Postby stepsinsc » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:30 pm

mweir145 wrote:Some people like Bonds don't want to settle with being one of the best, and why should they? They want to be at the top of them all. It's that very attitude that makes these guys major leaguers in the first place. It's that kind of drive (and yes, some degree of a large ego is required) that people like you or me will never know or understand. Looking down on somebody for wanting to be the best, and going about it through hard work to get there, is horribly short-sighted. And how exactly is something cheating if it's not against the rules and everybody else is doing the same thing?


You've got to be kidding me - please stop arguing as if I'm saying something that I'm simply have not said! I never condemned "hard work" and "wanting to be the best!" I never said "people should settle!" Such a thing would be incredibly short-sighted, but that's not what I ever even came close to stating. I denounce him for cheating to get there! Sure it takes work in the weight room even if you're on 'roids, but the steroids provide results otherwise unobtainable! And you've got to be able to see the irony in talking up Bonds' hard work! Please read Game of Shadows NOT for the steroid stuff but just for some of the statements he made throughout his high school, college, and early MLB days. He has never had a reputation as an incredibly hard worker. He's changed this perception in his late 30s, since he had to work harder to keep up with his aging body, but he also had a lot of help from illegal substances.

And you can't expect any reasonable person to swallow the argument that it "wasn't against the rules:"
1. It was illegal!
2. In 1991 Commissioner Vincent said steroids were against MLB policy, which was also the same year they were made illegal. However, the players union would not agree to a drug testing. It was basically an "honor system." It's like any higher level of education: no school "tests" students for cheating, but most impose an "honor" system.

And the argument that "everyone else was doing it" is completely illogical and simply a last ditch effort. The idea that "if all guilty can't be convicted then none should," is laughable. As the public we can only work with the information we know. Sure, a lot of people used them and we'll never know all that did. Many people commit crimes and are never caught, but we can't let that stop us from prosecuting those who are caught. And as an informed public we can't just stand by and allow the wool to be pulled over our eyes by Bonds' apologists because "not everyone who cheated can be caught."
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Re: Another Bonds Blog

Postby stepsinsc » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:36 pm

And before you respond by quoting my first post in this thread that "Bonds' couldn't live with being one of the best ever; he had to be the best," keep in mind that I explained subsequently that I was referring to HOW he went on to become the best.
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Re: Another Bonds Blog

Postby RocketsDWM » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:40 pm

I have a feeling his reply will be: Game of Shadows? Are you kidding me? Your using that as evidence??





Whats sad about this whole thing is that Bonds was already going to be a hall of famer without the added substances. But that wasnt good enough.

And amphetamines are against the rules...he has already failed one of those tests. ;-D
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Re: Another Bonds Blog

Postby mweir145 » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:47 pm

stepsinsc wrote:
mweir145 wrote:Some people like Bonds don't want to settle with being one of the best, and why should they? They want to be at the top of them all. It's that very attitude that makes these guys major leaguers in the first place. It's that kind of drive (and yes, some degree of a large ego is required) that people like you or me will never know or understand. Looking down on somebody for wanting to be the best, and going about it through hard work to get there, is horribly short-sighted. And how exactly is something cheating if it's not against the rules and everybody else is doing the same thing?


You've got to be kidding me - please stop arguing as if I'm saying something that I'm simply have not said! I never condemned "hard work" and "wanting to be the best!" I never said "people should settle!" Such a thing would be incredibly short-sighted, but that's not what I ever even came close to stating. I denounce him for cheating to get there! Sure it takes work in the weight room even if you're on 'roids, but the steroids provide results otherwise unobtainable! And you've got to be able to see the irony in talking up Bonds' hard work! Please read Game of Shadows NOT for the steroid stuff but just for some of the statements he made throughout his high school, college, and early MLB days. He has never had a reputation as an incredibly hard worker. He's changed this perception in his late 30s, since he had to work harder to keep up with his aging body, but he also had a lot of help from illegal substances.

I've read Game of Shadows, and I still have no problem stating that it took a lot of hard work (PEDs or not) from him to reach his record and become one of the best players of all time.

And you can't expect any reasonable person to swallow the argument that it "wasn't against the rules:"
1. It was illegal!
2. In 1991 Commissioner Vincent said steroids were against MLB policy, which was also the same year they were made illegal. However, the players union would not agree to a drug testing. It was basically an "honor system." It's like any higher level of education: no school "tests" students for cheating, but most impose an "honor" system.

And the argument that "everyone else was doing it" is completely illogical and simply a last ditch effort. The idea that "if all guilty can't be convicted then none should," is laughable. As the public we can only work with the information we know. Sure, a lot of people used them and we'll never know all that did. But we'll also know never know every single person who has committed murder in their lifetimes, but I'm not going to let that excuse stop society from denouncing those who we can prove committed murder.

Despite those things, you can't sit here and tell me that taking PED's in baseball wasn't an accepted practice among ballplayers for many years (and likely still is). The fact that amphetamines and steroids have been illegal for years was of no concern to anybody, there were no penalties. For all intents and purposes, there might as well have not been a law agaisnt them.

And baseball didn't care. If they did, they would have actually tried to do something instead of sending out a worthless memo to the major league teams that meant absolutely nothing to everyone. In fact, it has been widely reported that baseball basically encouraged the players to do what they had to do. And then we come back to Bonds, and him looking at what baseball players were doing all around him. And again I say I don't think I would have been able to resist that temptation either.
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Re: Another Bonds Blog

Postby stepsinsc » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:49 pm

RocketsDWM wrote:I have a feeling his reply will be: Game of Shadows? Are you kidding me? Your using that as evidence??





Whats sad about this whole thing is that Bonds was already going to be a hall of famer without the added substances. But that wasnt good enough.

And amphetamines are against the rules...he has already failed one of those tests. ;-D


Your second point is exactly what I was trying to say to begin with. And I understand what you're saying about the book; I try to only refer to the book for some of the things Bonds said to the media throughout his career since those are more verifiable and less controversial, since I think they speak volumes about his character...or lack thereof.
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Re: Another Bonds Blog

Postby RocketsDWM » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:54 pm

stepsinsc wrote:
RocketsDWM wrote:I have a feeling his reply will be: Game of Shadows? Are you kidding me? Your using that as evidence??





Whats sad about this whole thing is that Bonds was already going to be a hall of famer without the added substances. But that wasnt good enough.

And amphetamines are against the rules...he has already failed one of those tests. ;-D


Your second point is exactly what I was trying to say to begin with. And I understand what you're saying about the book; I try to only refer to the book for some of the things Bonds said to the media throughout his career since those are more verifiable and less controversial, since I think they speak volumes about his character...or lack thereof.
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