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Holds question

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Holds question

Postby triple3play » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:11 pm

Does a pitcher still get credit for a hold if the closer then goes on to blow the save?
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Re: Holds question

Postby Nooner » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:45 pm

Yes.
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Re: Holds question

Postby JTWood » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:47 pm

Yes. Unlike the loss rule, a Hold is credited to the pitcher when he leaves the game. So even if he comes in with a 1-run lead and leaves with the bases loaded only to have the closer finish the collapse, the BS will go to the closer and the reliever will get a Hold.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Holds question

Postby Noggy » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:41 am

JTWood, because the go ahead run would be charged to the first pitcher in that scenario, he wouldn't get a hold but rather be in line to take the loss.

A pitcher can fail to record an out and still get a hold as long as the runner(s) he lets reach base don't end up being the tying or go ahead run.

I'm pretty sure that's how it works at least. Since holds aren't an official MLB stat, I think one major stat provider requires the reliever to record an out while another doesn't. I know Yahoo doesn't require an out.
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Re: Holds question

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:48 am

Noggy wrote:JTWood, because the go ahead run would be charged to the first pitcher in that scenario, he wouldn't get a hold but rather be in line to take the loss.

Yeah, what I'm saying is that I think a guy can get a hold and a loss from the same appearance.
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Re: Holds question

Postby Noggy » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:56 am

StlSluggers wrote:
Noggy wrote:JTWood, because the go ahead run would be charged to the first pitcher in that scenario, he wouldn't get a hold but rather be in line to take the loss.

Yeah, what I'm saying is that I think a guy can get a hold and a loss from the same appearance.


I'm pretty sure that like a save, a pitcher can't get a hold if he is the pitcher of record. I've never seen a boxscore with a pitcher getting a hold and a loss.


EDIT: Although reading more about a hold on wiki, it sounds like I'm wrong about this. It's a pretty weird stat.
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Re: Holds question

Postby dclark0699 » Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:26 am

I'm pretty sure I've seen one this year where the pitcher got both a hold and a loss.
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Re: Holds question

Postby Lofunzo » Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:33 am

A pitcher can definitely get a hold and a loss in the same game. The original definition of a hold was that a pitcher had to enter the game in a save situation, record at least 1 out, and leave with the lead intact. Some time ago, it appears that they removed the "record an out" portion. How a pitcher can get a loss is if he leaves runners on base, the next pitcher allows them to score, and those runs are the runs of record.
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Re: Holds question

Postby Ursa » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:43 pm

Lofunzo wrote:A pitcher can definitely get a hold and a loss in the same game. The original definition of a hold was that a pitcher had to enter the game in a save situation, record at least 1 out, and leave with the lead intact. Some time ago, it appears that they removed the "record an out" portion. How a pitcher can get a loss is if he leaves runners on base, the next pitcher allows them to score, and those runs are the runs of record.

There are two schools of thought on this. In Yahoo, you definitely have to record an out to get a hold, even though the overnight stats may show a hold when no out has been recorded. This is the generally accepted version. There is another version where no out is required. Basically, I think it depends on which agency you're using.
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Re: Holds question

Postby Noggy » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:47 pm

Ursa wrote:In Yahoo, you definitely have to record an out to get a hold, even though the overnight stats may show a hold when no out has been recorded.


Oh, is that how it is? I knew I've seen guys not record an out and get a hold in yahoo boxscores and that threw me off after reading more about the rules that yahoo's provider follows.

Why aren't a loss and a hold mutually exclusive? If a pitcher gets charged with the loss, he was obviously responsible for the lead not being held. I have a better understanding of the rule now, but not so much the logic behind it. I think I understand why holds aren't an official stat now.
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