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Head To Head Points Based Leaguers UNITE!

Postby Heimush » Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:14 pm

Ive been participating in fantasy baseball drafts for years now. (I I think I had Mike Pagliarullo on my first team. I was 12 yrs old, what did I know?)

For some reason I just like point based leagues better than 5 by 5. Thats right!. My name is Ziggy and I play points based fantasy baseball. I feel much better out of the closet.

Getting to the point, if there are any points based leaguers out there, I would like to know how your scoring system works. We have a successful system that we have been using for about 6 or 7 years now, which we are very happy with, but it can never hurt to see other opinions and formats.

Our league is a 12 team head to head and we start 9 hitters 4 Starting pitchers and 1 Closer per week.

Hitting Categories
single = 1
double = 2
triple = 3
HR = 2
Run = 1
Rbi = 1
K = -1
BB = 1
SB = 1
CS = -1

While I would love to hear opinions, the benefit as far as I am concerned is it seems that this format gives more credence to better "hitters" as opposed to just straight power guys. It seems that it raises the value of guys who have good OBA, OPS, and K-BB ratio. but it doesnt change enough to skew it unfairly.

For instance these are the top point getters in our league last year.

Helton, Todd 1B COL 588
Pujols, Albert LF STL 587
Sheffield, Gary RF NYY 573
Wells, Vernon CF TOR 507
Garciaparra, Nomar SS BOS 506
Bonds, Barry LF SF 500
Renteria, Edgar SS STL 490
Delgado, Carlos 1B TOR 488
Rodriguez, Alex SS TEX 487
Ramirez, Manny LF BOS 486
Gonzalez, Luis E. LF ARI 481
Furcal, Rafael SS ATL 462
Huff, Aubrey RF TB 455
Ordonez, Magglio RF CHW 455
Pierre, Juan CF FLA 453
Jones, Chipper LF ATL 453
Beltran, Carlos CF KC 450
Tejada, Miguel SS BAL 448
Boone, Bret 2B SEA 447
Giles, Brian LF SD 442
Cabrera, Orlando SS MON 439
Suzuki, Ichiro RF SEA 436
Anderson, Garret LF ANA 434
Berkman, Lance LF HOU 431
Rolen, Scott 3B STL 429
Abreu, Bobby RF PHI 426
Bagwell, Jeff 1B HOU 424
Palmeiro, Rafael DH BAL 422
Soriano, Alfonso 2B NYY 422


Pitching
Win = 10
Loss = -2
Inn pitched = 1
Earned run = -1
K = 1
BB = -1
Save = 5
CG = 3
SHO = 5

As far as pitching, again K-BB ratio is important as opposed to just straight K's.

These are the top point getters:
Halladay, Roy SP TOR 585
Prior, Mark SP CHC 531
Schmidt, Jason SP SF 506
Loaiza, Esteban SP CHW 499
Gagne, Eric RP LA 477
Vazquez, Javier SP NYY 455
Mussina, Mike SP NYY 454
Pettitte, Andy SP HOU 442
Wood, Kerry SP CHC 442
Martinez, Pedro SP BOS 441
Foulke, Keith RP BOS 438
Hudson, Tim SP OAK 434
Hernandez, Livan SP MON 425
Clemens, Roger SP HOU 412
Brown, Kevin K. SP NYY 406
Moyer, Jamie SP SEA 399
Colon, Bartolo SP ANA 395
Williams, Woody SP STL 386
Mulder, Mark SP OAK 379
Ortiz, Russ SP ATL 373
Wagner, Billy RP PHI 373
Nomo, Hideo SP LA 372
Millwood, Kevin SP PHI 370
Wolf, Randy SP PHI 361
Ponson, Sidney SP BAL 357
Rivera, Mariano RP NYY 357
Schilling, Curt SP BOS 356
Pineiro, Joel A. SP SEA 355

Love to hear anyones suggestions or different formats and once again im not knocking Roto, I play that too.

Good Luck to everyone on the coming season.
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Postby Fumbler » Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:10 pm

I don't think i would like to play in a league where Furcal scores pretty much equal with A-Rod.

We play H2H Fantasy points in our league too.

We've been using the standard scoring from Sportsline since joining 3 years ago.

Single =1
Double = 2
Triple = 3
Home Run = 4
RBI = 1
Run Scored = 1
Walk = 1
Stolen Base = 2
Hit By Pitch = 1 (We just added this category)

Win = 10
Save = 10
Complete Game = 5
Strikeout = 1
Innings Pitched = 2
Run Allowed = -1
Hit Allowed = -.5
Walk Issued = -.5
Hit Batsman = -.5 (Again, we added this one)

The numbers come out pretty good. But it's definitely a power hitter and pitcher league.

I too wouldn't mind seeing some other scoring examples as i'm not totally happy with the way our league does it.
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Postby Heimush » Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:19 pm

as far as Arod, not many people realize that he had a down year last year. His strikeouts were way up, especially in the first half. In a typical year he scores around 515 points in our league. FUrcal obv had a career year, but if you take a look he had more doubles, triples, run scored, SB and a better k-bb ratio. 25 points between them is not crazy, for last year at least.
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Postby AuburnTigers » Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:15 pm

I am also a fan of point leagues. There is just a little more excitement involved than in roto. I play in roto leagues because it is "true" to the game of baseball. Both styles have their pros and cons.

I was very interested in these posts because I have been trying to come up with alternative point scoring systems for a while now. I have tried many different systems and have come to a conclusion. A good scoring system maintains a consistency in the points scored ratios of Batters:Starting Pitchers:Closers. The goal is to not make any one position(batter, SP, and Closer) dominate to the others. At first I was thinking that saves and wins should not be equal and a strikeout should not equal a half of an inning pitched, but I began to realize that I shouldnt compare individual categories but the entire batting stats to the entire pitching stats.

When I kept trying different point systems, I was surprised to see that the basic point system was a very good system. The basic is:

singles 1
double 2
triples 3
HR 4
RBI 1
runs 1
SB 2

wins 10
saves 10
inn. 2
K 1
hits allowed -.5
walks -.5
earned runs -1
complete game 5

Most of you probably are like me and want more scoring catagories to make it more realistic. For batters: strikeouts, caught stealing, grand slam, hit for cycle, sacrifice flies or hits, errors, and ect. For pitchers: losses, blown saves, singles-double-triples-HR allowed, shutouts, perfect game, holds, quality starts, and ect.

You have to be careful when altering the point systems because when you add a negative category, you need to add a positive or add a negative to the other position. For example(this is based on the basic point system above), I really think that batters should be penalized for strikeouts, so lets give them -1 for Ks. To compensate for that loss lets increase the value of RBI and Runs to 1.5 each. That generally equals out pretty well. When you go back and look at it, the overall ratios havent changed that much. Its just easier to use the basic system and its still as accurate.

I took the basic scoring system and averaged the top 10 batters, top 5 starting pitchers, and top 5 closers to see how they compared in points. Batters-696:Starting Pitchers-687.6:Closers-689.2. That gets to be pretty dang equal. I also took the top 10 Batters and top 10 Pitchers (both RP and SP) and averaged them and got: Batters-696:Pitchers-692.

I know that the basic system is not perfect, but I am just saying that its good. Now I have several other systems which I have altered and added more categories, but they havent come out as equal as the basic.

I would love for anyone to give me some more insight on this. Please point things out that I may not have considered. Wow, this is extremely long, sorry

If anyone is interested in a playing in a points leage please email me at mailto:ccorman68@yahoo.com and I will send you all of the rules

I have still have spots available!
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Postby wkelly91 » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:11 pm

I have played the basic for three years now and am considering adjustments for next year.

Add: losses (-5)
Add: Blown Saves (-10)

This would de-emphasize the relievers who are not elite have rack up huge numbers (Mesa etc.), this would also reduce the use of two-time scrub pitchers.

Any thoughts on that? }:-)
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Postby Fumbler » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:40 pm

Like was mentioned earlier, i would be worried about upsetting the balance if you add the negative points for blown saves and losses.

If you factor those in without decreasing some offensive points then the batters will outscore the pitchers by quite a bit.

Gagne with his perfect season would be about the only guy you could exclude -- he would still get his points. Every other pitcher though would end up with alot less points than the hitters.

Just my 2 cents...
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Postby AuburnTigers » Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:36 am

Fumbler wrote:Like was mentioned earlier, i would be worried about upsetting the balance if you add the negative points for blown saves and losses.

If you factor those in without decreasing some offensive points then the batters will outscore the pitchers by quite a bit.


Yeah, I totally agree. If you wanted to add losses and blown saves, you are going to have to increase one or two of the positive pitching stat categories. It would probably be best if you lessened the penalty for a blown save. I dont know if you are using the basic points system as a base, but if you are I would probably increase the amount for innings pitched. If you score 2 points per inning I would say maybe 1/4 of a point increase in innings pitched. You will get some crazy looking numbers in your stats. Or you may want to penalize batters -1/2 point for a strikeout. Both of those adjustments would most likely result in about -30 to -60 point range on the total scoring of batter and pitchers

See everytime I end up trying to adjust or add stat categories I see how much easier it is to keep the basic because its pretty dang accurate for its purpose(I know roto is way more accurate, dont jump down my throat quite yet).
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Postby Heimush » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:19 pm

We thought about adding blown saves bc it was frustrating to see a guy blow a save and then get a win, but the thinking is that if you look, just about every reliever has between 4 and 8 blown saves a year. It wouldnt really make that much of a difference, and it would only drag relievers down further.
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Postby KULCAT » Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:07 pm

I see there´s a lot of guys out there who like me just enjoy FP better. Great example on Arod. I was looking at his FP points average all year long last season and it was clear he wasnt having that great of a season(For him that is wich is like saying youre pissed of that you couldnt sleep with Jessica Alba and had setlle for Jessica Simpson) He was striking out wait too much and having many o-for many nights. Same goes for Nomar who went on this terrible hitting valleys.
Anyway weve playing with the old sandbox system for 4 years now. Last year we switched to yahoo and i changed some things about the system. 1-SB=1pts. My thought here is that much of the system is a point for each base. If you steal you take one base and doesnt give that much importance to guys like Alex Sanchez or Roger Cedeño who in reality are terrible baseball players. Also it gets guys like Soriano theire true value. For all i know Soriano is not a great hitter yet and if you ask for the top 10 hitters in baseball he´d have a tough time making it. Still he always gets picked among the top 3 in h2h and roto. Vladimir Guerrero is one of the best hitter in baseball but not a great basestealer. He gets caught all the time. So unless youre taking points away for getting caught i dont think SB should get 2 points
2-Error I have no idea why this would be a category since it happens on the field. Fantasy is about hitting and pitching.
3-Blown saves: For the reasons listed on the other posts. It just made the system unbalanced and even without it the good closers were way ahead of the bad ones.
4-Grounded into double play. It gave a lot of value to guys who hit when the bases had runners on or killed an inning. You wouldnt believe how Nomar killed me last year with those.

I also added Holds last year but i only gave it 3 points and it made no difference from years before making other RP´s other than closers worthless. Im thinking about giving them 10 points for hold. Any thoughts?

On a final note. I always give 3 points for IP cause otherwise the closers would become too valuable. Eric Gagne was the top player last year and i think it is deserve since nobody did his job better in baseball last year(i dont think a closer will ever be more important than a closer and yes i think closers are a babied breed of mostly starter rejects but still they have a job to do) and another advantage they have is that some of them have SP eligibility like Shacon and Graves and whoever owned Rocky Biddle last year knows how valuable that is between starts.
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Postby yeyo44 » Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:21 pm

We do a point league also. Love it. Here is how we score.

1 - Single
2- Double
3- Triple
4- HR
1- run
1- rbi
-1 K
2 SB
-1 Caught Stealing
-1 Error

For pitching

10 - win
1 - 1/3rd of an inng pitched
1- K
-1 BB
-1 Hit
-5 Loss
10 - CG
5 - Shutout
20 - no hitter
10 - Save
-5 Blown Save


Tell me what you guys think.
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