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Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

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Re: Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

Postby GiantsFan14 » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:16 pm

Manny Ramirez 19
John Smoltz 9
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Re: Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

Postby J35J » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:42 pm

So be it, continue if you want. I'm a little suprised that Smoltz made it this far to be honest. Manny is one of the better right handed hitters to ever step to the plate, IMO.

He is top 20 in OPS+ and top 10 in "regular" OPS for a reason!
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Re: Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

Postby DevilDriver » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:25 pm

ukrneal wrote:Manny is a very good hitter, but I don't think he gets in unless he continues to produce. And I am not clear if he will.

What makes you think that he won't continue to produce? It's not like he has regressed as a hitter.


ukrneal wrote:Was he ever the best hitter? Never.

He's arguably the best right-handed hitter of the last 10+ years, and one of the best of all-time: career line of .314/.410/.595 and top 20 in OPS+.


ukrneal wrote:Even in fantasy, he was rarely a first-rounder and usually only at the end of the first round. SO even in terms of pure stats, he was never tops.

Where he's gone in fantasy drafts should have absolutely nothing to do in determining whether or not he should be a HOFer.
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Re: Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

Postby ukrneal » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:09 am

DevilDriver wrote:
ukrneal wrote:Manny is a very good hitter, but I don't think he gets in unless he continues to produce. And I am not clear if he will.

What makes you think that he won't continue to produce? It's not like he has regressed as a hitter.


ukrneal wrote:Was he ever the best hitter? Never.

He's arguably the best right-handed hitter of the last 10+ years, and one of the best of all-time: career line of .314/.410/.595 and top 20 in OPS+.


ukrneal wrote:Even in fantasy, he was rarely a first-rounder and usually only at the end of the first round. SO even in terms of pure stats, he was never tops.

Where he's gone in fantasy drafts should have absolutely nothing to do in determining whether or not he should be a HOFer.


I think he's gtting older and he is not yet hitting up to his usual standards, but there are still two months to go. And while he may be one of the best hitters under your numbers, he was never the best in any given year. That's why I said one could make a compelling argument from his consistency at a high level.

The fantasy comment is more anecdotal, but it does show how he is thought of and is reflective of the 'old-style' stats.

In any case, my issue is not 'should Manny be HOF or not', my issue is "Is Manny more or less worthy than Smoltz". And when I look at the stats, I feel Smoltz makes a more compelling case (as I felt Thomas did).
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Re: Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

Postby Tavish » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:15 pm

ukrneal wrote:I think he's gtting older and he is not yet hitting up to his usual standards, but there are still two months to go. And while he may be one of the best hitters under your numbers, he was never the best in any given year. That's why I said one could make a compelling argument from his consistency at a high level.

That's a pretty rough standard for Manny. If you apply that same standard to Smoltz he fails even worse. He was never even the best pitcher on his own team in any given year until Maddux and Glavine moved out of Atlanta. That's not completely true, he was the best in 89 but that was before Maddux came to town.
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Re: Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

Postby pdlata » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:25 pm

Manny Ramirez has had at least 30 hrs and 100 RBI the past 9 seasons (hopefully 10 counting this year). Arod has done the same, well 10 counting this year,and he's a hall of famer, right?
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Re: Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

Postby ukrneal » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:56 pm

pdlata wrote:Manny Ramirez has had at least 30 hrs and 100 RBI the past 9 seasons (hopefully 10 counting this year). Arod has done the same, well 10 counting this year,and he's a hall of famer, right?


I don;t want to say this is not an achievement - it is. But it is not the same as it used to be. That said, it's still pretty impressive. Nonetheless, there should be more to being a HOFer than that. Of course, I'm sure this would be just icing on the cake. Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that he's not HOF material, but rather that Smoltz has a better claim.
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Re: Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

Postby ukrneal » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:09 pm

Tavish wrote:
ukrneal wrote:I think he's gtting older and he is not yet hitting up to his usual standards, but there are still two months to go. And while he may be one of the best hitters under your numbers, he was never the best in any given year. That's why I said one could make a compelling argument from his consistency at a high level.

That's a pretty rough standard for Manny. If you apply that same standard to Smoltz he fails even worse. He was never even the best pitcher on his own team in any given year until Maddux and Glavine moved out of Atlanta. That's not completely true, he was the best in 89 but that was before Maddux came to town.


I think one can make a reasonable argument that Smoltz was better in 1996. And there is no shame in saying that your third best on the team when the other two are also 300 game winners and HOFers themselves! Especially when one of them is probably among the top 5 or top 10 of all time. And 02-04 he was one of the best two closers in the league. Period.

When people talk about those Braves teams, you don't think MAddux and Glavine with this third guy SMoltz. You think of the three together and that any of the three could beat you at any time. As a Mets fan, it ticked me off, but I could not help but admire and appreciate what they were doing.
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Re: Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

Postby daullaz » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:12 pm

Manny Ramirez 18
John Smoltz 10
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Re: Vote Off Put The In The Hall - 2

Postby Tavish » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:38 pm

ukrneal wrote:
Tavish wrote:
ukrneal wrote:I think he's gtting older and he is not yet hitting up to his usual standards, but there are still two months to go. And while he may be one of the best hitters under your numbers, he was never the best in any given year. That's why I said one could make a compelling argument from his consistency at a high level.

That's a pretty rough standard for Manny. If you apply that same standard to Smoltz he fails even worse. He was never even the best pitcher on his own team in any given year until Maddux and Glavine moved out of Atlanta. That's not completely true, he was the best in 89 but that was before Maddux came to town.


I think one can make a reasonable argument that Smoltz was better in 1996. And there is no shame in saying that your third best on the team when the other two are also 300 game winners and HOFers themselves! Especially when one of them is probably among the top 5 or top 10 of all time. And 02-04 he was one of the best two closers in the league. Period.

When people talk about those Braves teams, you don't think MAddux and Glavine with this third guy SMoltz. You think of the three together and that any of the three could beat you at any time. As a Mets fan, it ticked me off, but I could not help but admire and appreciate what they were doing.

I don't disagree at all, I'm simply saying that I don't understand the reasoning behind faulting Ramirez for not being the best hitter in the league in a given year (which is very easy to argue against). If your argument against Ramirez is he wasn't better than several other surefire HoFers in the league then you the same case, only bigger, against Smoltz.

For as amazing as the Braves rotation was, you have to give Manny credit for being at the center of two of the most dominant offenses of this generation. He anchored both the Indians monster offense and the high-powered Red Sox teams.
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