If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Postby dillpickle » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:55 am

4Pack wrote:Sad thing is...if I understand correctly...Rose bet on his team to win. If he bet on them to lose...I would be all for the ban.



So if Pete Rose bet on his team to win five times during the week and didn't bet at all the other two games, what does that tell you? Does Pete Rose think he's going to win all seven games?
dillpickle
College Coach
College Coach


Posts: 147
Joined: 7 Mar 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Postby roninmedia » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:02 am

Ichiro said it best in a USA Today interview.

• Pete Rose: "No one can deny his 4,000-plus hits. The gambling thing is something different. ... On the front of his Hall of Fame plaque they should put all of his records and amazing feats. When you flip it over, it should say, 'He gambled on baseball.' But I would vote for him."


The Hall should be for performance. Anything else can be added to your information in Cooperstown.
roninmedia
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
CafeholicEagle Eye
Posts: 1647
Joined: 16 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Postby BillyHallDisciple » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:56 am

I'm happy with neither of them being there, and I would also love it if Sammy, McGwire and Raffy never got in, either.
BillyHallDisciple
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 2850
Joined: 1 Aug 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Postby Mookie4ever » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:15 am

I have a better question: Should anyone care?

The baseball hall of fame is making itself irrelevant. It has let in scores of people who don't deserve to be in the hall, they don't have the stats to be in a hall of the greatest in the game and some of them are put in on the basis of only popularity or longevity. There is no reason people like Johnny Mize, Phil Rizzuto, Enos Slaughter and Pee Wee Reese should be in there.

The flip side is that the all time hits leader is excluded and there is serious talk about excluding the soon-to-be HR leader.

Then they don't let in two former single season HR leaders (Maris and McGwire) and Joe Jackson.

The HOF is going to become a joke and irrelevant.
Image
Mookie4ever
Head Moderator
Head Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterHockey ModBasketball ModFootball ModMatchup Meltdown ChampionPick 3 Weekly WinnerSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 19486
(Past Year: 301)
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Hakuna, Montana

Re: If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Postby Art Vandelay » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:57 am

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Bonds did take steroids, and that he will at some point provide a positive test, admit to taking them, or otherwise get caught. Let's also assume that taking steroids when he did is cheating. Even if all of that is true, since when has cheating been a reason to keep someone out of the hall? Every player in the Hall of Fame most likely cheated at one point or another, to varying degrees, are we really going to kick all cheaters out of the hall? or just a certain kind of cheaters? or just cheaters from a certain era?
Image
Art Vandelay
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

CafeholicFantasy ExpertPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5265
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Postby Yoda » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:59 am

Mookie4ever wrote:The HOF is a joke and irrelevant.


There I fixed it for you.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Postby great gretzky » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:32 pm

someone touched on this earlier. At least bonds was still doing his best in everygame, there isn't the same conflict of interest that Rose faced.

Meaning if Rose bets on his team to lose, he could be tanking. If he bets on his team to win, he could be tanking a game he isn't specifically betting on by using players he wouldn't normally have used, such as reliever management etc.

At least its not "fixed" or giving the appearance of fixed with the roids, we still know the game itself was a real competition, whereas a manager making decisions (or possibly making decisions) not in the total interest of the team, now that's the true sin.

In my book, players wanting to be the best they can be is an understandable trait of competitors. Managers betting on their own teams, when they are chief decisions makers is awful.
great gretzky
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafeholic
Posts: 3769
Joined: 3 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Washington, DC

Re: If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Postby in10s » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:10 pm

Boy, I love Pete Rose threads! People are so very split on if he should be in the hall, check out a poll here at the cafe back in March at viewtopic.php?t=257906. That poll was 29 for, 28 against, 20 neutral.

As for me, I'm 100% in the camp of those who think Rose should be banned for life. I also think that the Bonds situation cannot be compared to the Rose situation. Very complex different situations.

One of the things I love about baseball is its rich deep history. Way back when, the Black Sox scandal almost destroyed the game. The hard line about gambling on baseball comes from there, and rightly so. If there was any chance people are fixing games, Baseball is dead.

I see fixing games very different as cheating to improve your performance. I'm not saying one is more acceptable or better than the other, just they are very different. And interms of impact, fixing seems to have more potential to damage the game.

That said, I do think Steroid/Bonds issue will have probably almost as lasting effect on baseball as the Black Sox scandal. It also threatens the game, but in a different way.

One more key thing. Baseball cheating has been around for a long time and almost tolerated as part of the game if you can get away with it. Steroids were new to baseball cheaters, and the rules maybe not as clear. So maybe, just maybe, you can argue Bonds didn't have clear precedence. But Rose had over 50 years of Baseball policy about gambling.

Not sure yet how I feel about Bonds (or McQuire or others) being in the Hall. But I am sure how I feel about Rose. Keep him out.
in10s
College Coach
College Coach


Posts: 210
Joined: 7 Jun 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Postby dillpickle » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:16 pm

Everyone is on Bond’s back for taking steroids, while Sosa not only took steroids, he corked his bats (which is proven). Do you realize how light those bats must have been for him while on the juice and corking the bat. Instead of having to commit to a swing too soon to notice the break in the pitch, that extra tenth or more of a second he could wait on the pitch to recognize the break and still get the “light” bat through the zone probably assisted in more then one HR (or base hit) instead of a swing and miss having committed too soon.
dillpickle
College Coach
College Coach


Posts: 147
Joined: 7 Mar 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: If Pete Rose can't be in the HoF why can Bonds?

Postby great gretzky » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:23 pm

except I have read on more than one occasion that physicists aren't even sure if a corked bat helps. You can swing it faster, but it also has less mass, which imparts less force.

Although I do have to say that the canard of roids not helping average is a tad silly. If you can swing your bat faster because of the strength, you can swing later, and thus be more judicious in your cuts.
great gretzky
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafeholic
Posts: 3769
Joined: 3 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Washington, DC

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: abc11435, apz, silverZ, slink, UMTerp29 and 9 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Thursday, Apr. 24
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Kansas City at Cleveland
(12:05 pm)
Cincinnati at Pittsburgh
(12:35 pm)
Chi White Sox at Detroit
(1:08 pm)
St. Louis at NY Mets
(1:10 pm)
Minnesota at Tampa Bay
(1:10 pm)
indoors
Arizona at Chi Cubs
(2:20 pm)
San Diego at Washington
(7:05 pm)
Baltimore at Toronto
(7:07 pm)
NY Yankees at Boston
(7:10 pm)
Oakland at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Philadelphia at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact