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Re: Ryan Theroit

Postby pantagrapher » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:42 pm

KR wrote:
Rounders wrote:And Theriot has gone 10/20 in the 2 hole since he was put there. You can get pissed at Lou all you want, but he's getting (or letting) the young guys produce. Maybe you want Dusty back so that Izturis, Derosa, and Jones will be out there every day. And maybe he'd trade for Neifi so that Fontenot and Theriot never have to play.


Yea, Felix Pie, The Cubs TOP YOUNG prospect would have to disagree with you on that. You can currently find him rotting on the bench.

Theirot, Fontenot whoever will be next to him depending on which side of the Bed Lou wakes up on that day in the upcoming weeks/months.

The Cubs will be a better team as long as they keep spending the money--There not winning becuase of Pinella. There winning in spite of Pinella.

My favorite one this year---Lou about to make his closer Dempster who has a 3,3 ERA, and a Strikeout an inning into a starter, and take one of the better starting prospects in the cubs system a closer. Lou was excited about the prospect of ruining two positions at once----But in the end, thank god for cubs fans someone in the clubhouse talked some sense into Lou.



Not to get involved in someone else's argument, but if the best example of poor management you can come up with is something Lou never even did, it doesn't go a long way toward supporting your argument. Managers float a lot of silly ideas when their teams are struggling—many times to motivate the guys in the clubhouse. I doubt Marmol was really going to close. And everything that's happened since then suggests that Lou's ploy worked (i.e. it motivated the veteran Dempster and the young Marmol, not to mention the rest of the bullpen).

Hell, the Cubs winning percentage has gone up every month of the season. I have to wonder, where is this bad management you speak of?
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Re: Ryan Theroit

Postby KR » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:58 pm

pantagrapher wrote:
KR wrote:
Rounders wrote:And Theriot has gone 10/20 in the 2 hole since he was put there. You can get pissed at Lou all you want, but he's getting (or letting) the young guys produce. Maybe you want Dusty back so that Izturis, Derosa, and Jones will be out there every day. And maybe he'd trade for Neifi so that Fontenot and Theriot never have to play.


Yea, Felix Pie, The Cubs TOP YOUNG prospect would have to disagree with you on that. You can currently find him rotting on the bench.

Theirot, Fontenot whoever will be next to him depending on which side of the Bed Lou wakes up on that day in the upcoming weeks/months.

The Cubs will be a better team as long as they keep spending the money--There not winning becuase of Pinella. There winning in spite of Pinella.

My favorite one this year---Lou about to make his closer Dempster who has a 3,3 ERA, and a Strikeout an inning into a starter, and take one of the better starting prospects in the cubs system a closer. Lou was excited about the prospect of ruining two positions at once----But in the end, thank god for cubs fans someone in the clubhouse talked some sense into Lou.



Not to get involved in someone else's argument, but if the best example of poor management you can come up with is something Lou never even did, it doesn't go a long way toward supporting your argument. Managers float a lot of silly ideas when their teams are struggling—many times to motivate the guys in the clubhouse. I doubt Marmol was really going to close. And everything that's happened since then suggests that Lou's ploy worked (i.e. it motivated the veteran Dempster and the young Marmol, not to mention the rest of the bullpen).

Hell, the Cubs winning percentage has gone up every month of the season. I have to wonder, where is this bad management you speak of?


Omg, Another Lous apologist. Yea in this edition Lou's stupid idea was really just a ploy the whole time to motivate Dempster(Who was Fine at the time), and motivate Marmol and the rest of the bullpen. Yea Right.

For a few bad moves read the Whole thread buddy for a subsample, or Follow the Cubs everyday.

Lou's a horrible manager. The Cub's winning ways are in spite of his managing---This season is a result of getting Derek Lee Healthy AND Spending 100 million in the offseason. Nothing to do with Lou.

And just to make it clear if im coming off the wrong way---I love the cubs, and love watching them. But I cant stand Lou.
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Re: Ryan Theroit

Postby pantagrapher » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:17 pm

KR wrote:Omg, Another Lous apologist. Yea in this edition Lou's stupid idea was really just a ploy the whole time to motivate Dempster(Who was Fine at the time), and motivate Marmol and the rest of the bullpen. Yea Right.

For a few bad moves read the Whole thread buddy for a subsample, or Follow the Cubs everyday.

Lou's a horrible manager. The Cub's winning ways are in spite of his managing---This season is a result of getting Derek Lee Healthy AND Spending 100 million in the offseason. Nothing to do with Lou.

And just to make it clear if im coming off the wrong way---I love the cubs, and love watching them. But I cant stand Lou.

I've read the thread. Had you done the same, you might have even noticed that I commented in it earlier. Most of the frustration here seems to emerge from the fact that from a fantasy perspective, it's tough to tell when a guy like Theriot or Fontenot is going to get regular playing time. How that is an indictment of Lou's management from a purely baseball POV is beyond me. You have yet to point to any record of his poor decisions.

I'm not a Lou apologist; you're the one here taking a passionate position, so don't project that onto me. I asked what you're basing your position on, and you haven't really answered the question.
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Re: Ryan Theroit

Postby Rounders » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:19 pm

KR wrote:
Rounders wrote:And Theriot has gone 10/20 in the 2 hole since he was put there. You can get pissed at Lou all you want, but he's getting (or letting) the young guys produce. Maybe you want Dusty back so that Izturis, Derosa, and Jones will be out there every day. And maybe he'd trade for Neifi so that Fontenot and Theriot never have to play.


Yea, Felix Pie, The Cubs TOP YOUNG prospect would have to disagree with you on that. You can currently find him rotting on the bench.

Theirot, Fontenot whoever will be next to him depending on which side of the Bed Lou wakes up on that day in the upcoming weeks/months.

The Cubs will be a better team as long as they keep spending the money--There not winning becuase of Pinella. There winning in spite of Pinella.

My favorite one this year---Lou about to make his closer Dempster who has a 3,3 ERA, and a Strikeout an inning into a starter, and take one of the better starting prospects in the cubs system a closer. Lou was excited about the prospect of ruining two positions at once----But in the end, thank god for cubs fans someone in the clubhouse talked some sense into Lou.


I would also like to see Pie out there, but I can't exactly blame Lou for not wanting to trot a guy out there every day that's hitting .216, and is 7 of his last 59. Lou gave him a chance (more than I can say for Dusty), but he just hasn't performed offensively. I think Pie's defense makes up for it, but the problem when the Cubs were losing is that they weren't getting any runs, so he's trying to put guys out there that will produce more offense.

And as far as the whole closer thing, I don't presume to know what went on. All they came out and said is that Dempster was asked about how he felt about starting, and so Dempster went to a press conference and said he was going to be in the starting rotation. 30 min later Lou set him straight. As far as what actually went on behind the scene, who knows.

And spending money isn't the key for the Cubs because they usually spend it on the wrong guys. They over-paid for Jones, Howry, and Eyre last year because they were all coming off career years, then they went out and over-paid for Derosa this year (none of which were acquired while Lou was on staff). I believe they also over-paid for Marquis and Lilly, but so far they've been performing well enough. They seem to have no problem spending money lately, but it's usually on mediocre (at best) players that have career years on their walk year (this is Hendry's fault).

And if you want to talk about inconsistent lineups, Dusty put out a different lineup EVERY day. Lee was the only one safe when Dusty was there. Even Ramirez got moved down to the 6th spot. At least Lou has some kind of consistency. You're main complaint is that he's sharing the #2 hole between Theriot and Fontenot, and I fail to see how this is such a bad thing. (oh yeah, i forgot that your other complaint is that he gave Fontenot 1 day off over a month period 2 days after he made a couple errors - yeah, he must not know what he's doing)

Soriano
Theriot or Fontenot
Lee
Ramirez
RF (depending if Floyd needs rest or not)
Theriot or Fontenot
CF (depending on who doesn't suck at the time)
C
P
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Re: Ryan Theroit

Postby KR » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:20 pm

pantagrapher wrote:
KR wrote:I've read the thread. Had you done the same, you might have even noticed that I commented in it earlier. Most of the frustration here seems to emerge from the fact that from a fantasy perspective, it's tough to tell when a guy like Theriot or Fontenot is going to get regular playing time. How that is an indictment of Lou's management from a purely baseball POV is beyond me. You have yet to point to any record of his poor decisions.

I'm not a Lou apologist; you're the one here taking a passionate position, so don't project that onto me. I asked what you're basing your position on, and you haven't really answered the question.


Should I have mentioned that you wrote one sentence in the thread?

From Pure Baseball perspective if you can not see the terrible managing decesions he makes on a day to day basis you must not watch the cubs. Wether it's hindering the development of young players, destroying their confidence, or poor managment, its sad that cubs fan are happy with Lou and the .500 record he brings just because of how bad they been the last few years.
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Re: Ryan Theroit

Postby pantagrapher » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:59 am

KR wrote:
pantagrapher wrote:
KR wrote:I've read the thread. Had you done the same, you might have even noticed that I commented in it earlier. Most of the frustration here seems to emerge from the fact that from a fantasy perspective, it's tough to tell when a guy like Theriot or Fontenot is going to get regular playing time. How that is an indictment of Lou's management from a purely baseball POV is beyond me. You have yet to point to any record of his poor decisions.

I'm not a Lou apologist; you're the one here taking a passionate position, so don't project that onto me. I asked what you're basing your position on, and you haven't really answered the question.


Should I have mentioned that you wrote one sentence in the thread?

From Pure Baseball perspective if you can not see the terrible managing decesions he makes on a day to day basis you must not watch the cubs. Wether it's hindering the development of young players, destroying their confidence, or poor managment, its sad that cubs fan are happy with Lou and the .500 record he brings just because of how bad they been the last few years.


I'm beginning to suspect you don't know what you're talking about. Hindering the development of young players? Should Fontenot be hitting better than .360? Should Theriot have more than 14 steals? What about Marmol? Marshall? If this is how they pitch after Lou has "destroyed their confidence," I'd love to see what they could do with a better manager. You seem to be fixated on the fact that Pie has been underperforming and unable to acknowledge that it might be Pie, not Lou, who's at fault for that. You still haven't pointed to anything specific other than a move that Lou never made—the Marmol for Dempster switch. So I think it might be time to let go of the hate. I'm finished with this argument.
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Re: Ryan Theroit

Postby Rounders » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:48 am

pantagrapher wrote:I'm beginning to suspect you don't know what you're talking about. Hindering the development of young players? Should Fontenot be hitting better than .360? Should Theriot have more than 14 steals? What about Marmol? Marshall? If this is how they pitch after Lou has "destroyed their confidence," I'd love to see what they could do with a better manager. You seem to be fixated on the fact that Pie has been underperforming and unable to acknowledge that it might be Pie, not Lou, who's at fault for that. You still haven't pointed to anything specific other than a move that Lou never made—the Marmol for Dempster switch. So I think it might be time to let go of the hate. I'm finished with this argument.


Agreed. The young guys are performing great. Lou's actually giving them the chance to perform. Theriot went into a big slump, and Lou still gave him the chance to get out of it. The only guys that aren't performing (as far as youth) are Pie, Cedeno, and Murton. He sent them all back down at one point so they could play every day because none of them were performing. He gave Pie another shot, and Pie just can't get it done offensively, so it's expected that he'll send him down after the break. I don't like that Jacque Jones is out there, but his hands are tied (he can't get him off the 25 man roster), so that means another player has to be sent down (and Pie is the one not performing). He's allowed numerous young pitchers the chance to pitch at the big league level (Cherry, Rapada, Petrick, Marmol, Marshall, Guzman, Gallagher), but he can't keep them all on staff. And he's put these pitchers in low pressure spots to get their confidence up, and so far they have performed.

Anyways, I also think I've said all I have to say. Continue your Pinella hatred, but I don't know how you can base it on how he's handling the young players (if they perform, they play every day).

p.s. he is one of the best in game managers out there
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Re: Ryan Theroit

Postby KR » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:04 pm

pantagrapher wrote:I'm beginning to suspect you don't know what you're talking about. Hindering the development of young players? Should Fontenot be hitting better than .360? Should Theriot have more than 14 steals? What about Marmol? Marshall? If this is how they pitch after Lou has "destroyed their confidence," I'd love to see what they could do with a better manager. You seem to be fixated on the fact that Pie has been underperforming and unable to acknowledge that it might be Pie, not Lou, who's at fault for that. You still haven't pointed to anything specific other than a move that Lou never made—the Marmol for Dempster switch. So I think it might be time to let go of the hate. I'm finished with this argument.


Im begining you suspect your here to argue, and be a homer, rather then debate.

Fontenot was hitting 400 in the two spot--He got Benched, then moved down in the order.

Theirot--Since you mentioned steals, dont you think he would have alot more if he hadn't been benched so frequently?

Pie-Rotting on the bench.

Marshall--His success has absolutely NOTHING to do with Lou..nothing.

Between the benching, and inconsistant playing time hes giving the youngsters how could you not be concerned with the future of all the youngsters? Pie, Marmal, Murton, Fontenot(Was on the bench, and hell be back on the bench sooner then later), theirot, etc.

"Lou's playing his young players, if they perform everyday" --And thats basically it, said by the guy above me. I dont agree with that being how you treat young players. Lou is treating the Cubs like there the Yankees, and must win the world series this year. Since there not, it would be nice if he thought about the future of the cubs.

A Hater is someone that wishes another to lose, Which Im obviously not since I want the cubs to win. A Homer Blindlessly defends his team regardless of there actions--that would be you.
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Re: Ryan Theroit

Postby Rounders » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:53 am

Fontenot was hitting 400 in the two spot--He got Benched, then moved down in the order.


I heard a mention on the radio that Lou was watching batting practice, and felt Theriot was hitting the ball really well, so he put him in the 2 spot and Fontenot in the 6 spot. Result? Theriot hits 3 doubles.
And Fontenot didn't get benched then moved down. He got moved down, then GIVEN A DAY OFF (he had played in every game since he came up, and minor leaguers that get called up generally get days off).

Theirot--Since you mentioned steals, dont you think he would have alot more if he hadn't been benched so frequently?


????
He's had about 4 games where he didn't play in the past 2 1/2 months, and he's pinch hit a handful of times. 2 of the days he got off was because he was in an 0/15 slump. Not bad for a guy that wasn't suppose to start.

Pie-Rotting on the bench.


And he'll probably be sent down. It's not easy to throw a guy out there that's hitting .216. You talk about Lou destroying young player's confidence, but you expect him to throw Pie out there and destroy his confidence on offense?

Marshall--His success has absolutely NOTHING to do with Lou..nothing.


Probably not, but he still handles his pitchers in the game leaps and bounds above Dusty.

Between the benching, and inconsistant playing time hes giving the youngsters how could you not be concerned with the future of all the youngsters? Pie, Marmal, Murton, Fontenot(Was on the bench, and hell be back on the bench sooner then later), theirot, etc.


Get off the idea that Fontenot was benched. HE WAS GIVEN A DAY OFF!!! If you believe he benched Fontenot, that would mean that every manager "benches" all their players. Almost every player gets days off (especially young players coming up from the minors).
Also, Pie can't hit the ball - Marmol is getting a lot of chances, and Lou is putting him in places where he thinks he can succeed - Murton got sent down because they have an overload of RF, and Lou wanted him to be playing every day - Theriot is playing every day with some days off here and there.

"Lou's playing his young players, if they perform everyday" --And thats basically it, said by the guy above me. I dont agree with that being how you treat young players. Lou is treating the Cubs like there the Yankees, and must win the world series this year. Since there not, it would be nice if he thought about the future of the cubs.


A) You blame Lou for destroying their confidence and expect him to run them out there blindly every game despite them slumping? Most players get days off when they get in slumps, so why shouldn't they?
B) You have given up on the season when the Cubs are 4.5 games back from a team that hasn't finished over .500 in a long long time? No, they wouldn't be the best team in the playoffs if they made it, but neither was St. Louis. What you are suggesting is that they should have given up at the end of April, and played all their young guys instead of trying to win. That may have made you happy, but it would piss off the millions of Cubs fans that actually know baseball.


I don't think Lou is the greatest manager ever, and at this point I wouldn't give him an "A" as a manager, but I also wouldn't give him the "F" you're suggesting. He has managed the young guys well (not over working them, and putting them in spots to succeed, but yet letting them get a ton of playing time), and he has done a great job of managing games (with pitchers, pinch hitters, in game strategy). I was skeptical the first month, but he has proven that he knows what he's doing, and he's got the team winning. From ESPN's power rankings, "The Cubs are a major league-best 21-10 since June 3." - I guess that's the type of team YOU give up on.
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