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Keeper Rules

Postby Grouperman941 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:57 pm

My keeper league has been going for 7 years. In that time, the better owners have gravitated to the top of the standings while the same handful of owners fight for last each year. The distance between first and last seems to increase each year, and this year, we have the lowest last place score ever so far.

We are trying to come up with an adjustment to our keeper rules that make it easier for the 'lesser' teams to compete at the start of a new year while still being fair to the top teams who have been slowly improving over time.

We thought we had a solution a few years ago -- we went from 6 mandatory keepers to from 0-8 keepers with an supplemental draft. (I found this system to work, as it helped my team go from a middle-of-the packer to a contender lol.)

But this rule has not stopped the 'rich' from getting richer and the 'poor' from getting poorer.

Any (fair and simple) suggestions?


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Re: Keeper Rules

Postby Vicious_Machine » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:41 am

one simple thing you can do is put a salary cap on the teams.
then if you keep a player, his cost goes up year after year, by say $5 (depending on cap room and such).
i am not really sure if there is a website that would help you manage this though. i had the same issue your having, but luckily i was in a league with a bunch of friends from real life, so we just get 2gether each year for the cap/draft system.
then we use yahoo in the offline draft feature and put the appropriate players on each team.

not sure if you can do it quite as easily if your team is spread out over the world, but i have managed to do cap drafts in chat rooms before too.


more specifically to the rules we used. the 1st year we drafted, it was a cap on each team in terms of money, and it was an auction draft. then if you wanted to keep a player the next year, depending on how much he made this year, his cost would go up for each additional year you keep him. however, we also put a cap on how long you can keep a "non-franchised player" (it was a hockey league, you could franchise 1 forward and 1 goalie and keep them indefinately, the rest was a 5 year cap).
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Re: Keeper Rules

Postby talan37 » Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:53 pm

You didn't mention some specifics which in my mind make a difference on what rules you can implement. Specifically what are your current keeper rules exactly, and if you do an auction or snake draft.

The easiest way is to limit the # of years you can "keep" a player... this will prevent people from getting "lucky" on prospects or young guys who become monsters and having them locked up forever.(If this happens enough time you can end up with huge disparities if the league runs long enough)

In a snake draft you can do this by increasing the round through which a player is kept every year.... so if you drafted him 7th, next year you need to use your 6th pick, then next year your 5th etc...(until his last year as a 1st pick)

You can also set a salary cap, but you need to as a league determine a site that will determine the $$ values your league will stick to.

In an auction league you can increase the price per year for a keeper. So if you drafted ryan howard in '06 for say 12$, next year he would be 16$, then 20$, then 24$ and so on. In my league we have a "free-agency" period after 3 years, so after 3 years of holding your players go into free-agency and the other teams in the league can place a blind-bid on him, you then have the option of beating the high bid(you get to see the high bid so you have an obvious advantage), or releasing him.(the guy who put the high bid in _has_ to take him so you can't bid up other peoples keepers with impunity) This means you have him for 3 years at what you originally payed, then you have to pay a theoretical "market value" for him. You can hold for him 3 more years before the blind-bid is done again.

In an auction league you can set a Salary cap And/or a Total #. So you can keep 10 players up to a total of 90$ for example.(In this way you can't end up having 8 keepers who are all 1st round draft picks) This will also allow the owners with weaker teams to take more "chances" on guys who may or may not breakout next year.

Limit the number of keepers period...In an 8man keeper league, presumably the top 100 players will automatically be out of the draft, this makes it very hard for a team to actually improve noticeably without getting lucky on a guy breaking out.

All the possible options though will depend very heavily on your current format regarding keepers and your draft though.
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Re: Keeper Rules

Postby Grouperman941 » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:19 am

It is a snake draft, with a supplemental draft for those who keep fewer than 8.

Thanks for your help, guys.
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Re: Keeper Rules

Postby Lofunzo » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:09 pm

We thought we had a solution a few years ago -- we went from 6 mandatory keepers to from 0-8 keepers with an supplemental draft. (I found this system to work, as it helped my team go from a middle-of-the packer to a contender lol.)


I don't see how potentially keeping more players would stop the rich from getting richer. All that it does is potentially allow the better teams to keep more players. Some possible solutions would be to keep less players or put a draft round value on the players and remove 1 year after each season. Once a player drops down to 0, he goes back into the draft. Then, set up your draft as an actual complete draft. If I keep Jeter as a 1st rounder (after a few years), he is my 1st round pick. Hope this makes sense.

To clarify, let me back up. Let's say that you drafted Jeter in the 3rd round in 2005. During the 2006 draft, if you wanted to keep Jeter, he would be your 2nd round pick. During the draft, you could just select Jeter as your 2nd rounder. During the 2007 draft, you could keep Jeter as your 1st round pick. Of course, this would need to be specified before the draft. Once a player's draft value dropped to 0, he would have to go back into the pool. This would be applicable is the Jeter owner kept him through 2007.

Since your league has already been running for years, you could either start from scratch or just apply draft round values based on Yahoo rank. I prefer the latter. Just do it based on simple math. In a 12 teamer, ranks 1-12 are 1st rounders, 13-24 are 2nd rounders, and so on. Multiple players on a team in the same round range get bumped up a round meaning 2 2nd round players would be a 2nd and a 3rd. It's not foolproof but it is pretty fair.
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Re: Keeper Rules

Postby Grouperman941 » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:47 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
We thought we had a solution a few years ago -- we went from 6 mandatory keepers to from 0-8 keepers with an supplemental draft. (I found this system to work, as it helped my team go from a middle-of-the packer to a contender lol.)


I don't see how potentially keeping more players would stop the rich from getting richer. All that it does is potentially allow the better teams to keep more players. Some possible solutions would be to keep less players or put a draft round value on the players and remove 1 year after each season. Once a player drops down to 0, he goes back into the draft. Then, set up your draft as an actual complete draft. If I keep Jeter as a 1st rounder (after a few years), he is my 1st round pick. Hope this makes sense.

To clarify, let me back up. Let's say that you drafted Jeter in the 3rd round in 2005. During the 2006 draft, if you wanted to keep Jeter, he would be your 2nd round pick. During the draft, you could just select Jeter as your 2nd rounder. During the 2007 draft, you could keep Jeter as your 1st round pick. Of course, this would need to be specified before the draft. Once a player's draft value dropped to 0, he would have to go back into the pool. This would be applicable is the Jeter owner kept him through 2007.

Since your league has already been running for years, you could either start from scratch or just apply draft round values based on Yahoo rank. I prefer the latter. Just do it based on simple math. In a 12 teamer, ranks 1-12 are 1st rounders, 13-24 are 2nd rounders, and so on. Multiple players on a team in the same round range get bumped up a round meaning 2 2nd round players would be a 2nd and a 3rd. It's not foolproof but it is pretty fair.


Thanks Lofunzo.

The idea behind the 0-8 was that if a team was very good, they likely had more than 8 players worthy of keeping, where a bad team didn't, so the poor teams can keep fewer and get first choice of discards and/or prospects. 8 might have been a high#, but it allowed teams to take some risks on young players if they wanted. This did help the teams who took advantage of it, but some guys did not get it and kept their crappy players and got worse in the 3 years since we went to that. The best team in the league has slowly improved, through trades and good drafting, by about 1 keeper a year to the point where some people think he is unbeatable. They might be right. IMO, the guys who did not figure out how to use the system are the ones who created our current problem.

We have come to the conclusion that if we are to approach parity and still have keepers, we have to find a way of turning over the top 50 or so players from time to time.

Your suggestion regarding draft picks is pretty close to what I came up with after reading up here at the cafe. The snag I am hitting is that I am not sure how this could be implemented with a live draft, and everyone in the league wants to keep using the draft room. Most guys have not been in other leagues and have never done slow drafts, so for us, the draft night is a big deal. I actually prefer slow drafts, but I am an anomaly in this league. It will also be tough to track, I think.

We do have the historical draft results from at least 4 years to figure keepers by. We might have to make some provisions to allow for guys who should be dropped to be kept for one more year, since players like ARod and Pujols have not been in a draft since the first one, and guys have structured their teams to keep them forever. We could also do as you suggested with published rankings and start over.
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Re: Keeper Rules

Postby CBMGreatOne » Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:15 am

Lofunzo wrote:
We thought we had a solution a few years ago -- we went from 6 mandatory keepers to from 0-8 keepers with an supplemental draft. (I found this system to work, as it helped my team go from a middle-of-the packer to a contender lol.)


I don't see how potentially keeping more players would stop the rich from getting richer. All that it does is potentially allow the better teams to keep more players. Some possible solutions would be to keep less players or put a draft round value on the players and remove 1 year after each season. Once a player drops down to 0, he goes back into the draft. Then, set up your draft as an actual complete draft. If I keep Jeter as a 1st rounder (after a few years), he is my 1st round pick. Hope this makes sense.

To clarify, let me back up. Let's say that you drafted Jeter in the 3rd round in 2005. During the 2006 draft, if you wanted to keep Jeter, he would be your 2nd round pick. During the draft, you could just select Jeter as your 2nd rounder. During the 2007 draft, you could keep Jeter as your 1st round pick. Of course, this would need to be specified before the draft. Once a player's draft value dropped to 0, he would have to go back into the pool. This would be applicable is the Jeter owner kept him through 2007.

Since your league has already been running for years, you could either start from scratch or just apply draft round values based on Yahoo rank. I prefer the latter. Just do it based on simple math. In a 12 teamer, ranks 1-12 are 1st rounders, 13-24 are 2nd rounders, and so on. Multiple players on a team in the same round range get bumped up a round meaning 2 2nd round players would be a 2nd and a 3rd. It's not foolproof but it is pretty fair.


I have a question about this because I'm contemplating starting a football keeper league this year and the draft principles should be the same. What happens if you draft a player in the 19th round and he immediately becomes a perrenial 1st rounder. Does his countdown go one round at a time, or should there be a mandatory minimum keeper value. It would seem unbalanced to let such a player stay on the same team for 19 seasons. Would you also set a maximum on the number of years that you could keep one player?

Even then, would it be fair to keep that player at an 18th, 17th and 16th round value each year that you kept him if it were a three year max keeper?

Also, am I reading correctly that you could keep your first round pick for only one additional year?

I'm trying to come up with a workable system myself.
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Re: Keeper Rules

Postby Lofunzo » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:04 am

CBMGreatOne wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
We thought we had a solution a few years ago -- we went from 6 mandatory keepers to from 0-8 keepers with an supplemental draft. (I found this system to work, as it helped my team go from a middle-of-the packer to a contender lol.)


I don't see how potentially keeping more players would stop the rich from getting richer. All that it does is potentially allow the better teams to keep more players. Some possible solutions would be to keep less players or put a draft round value on the players and remove 1 year after each season. Once a player drops down to 0, he goes back into the draft. Then, set up your draft as an actual complete draft. If I keep Jeter as a 1st rounder (after a few years), he is my 1st round pick. Hope this makes sense.

To clarify, let me back up. Let's say that you drafted Jeter in the 3rd round in 2005. During the 2006 draft, if you wanted to keep Jeter, he would be your 2nd round pick. During the draft, you could just select Jeter as your 2nd rounder. During the 2007 draft, you could keep Jeter as your 1st round pick. Of course, this would need to be specified before the draft. Once a player's draft value dropped to 0, he would have to go back into the pool. This would be applicable is the Jeter owner kept him through 2007.

Since your league has already been running for years, you could either start from scratch or just apply draft round values based on Yahoo rank. I prefer the latter. Just do it based on simple math. In a 12 teamer, ranks 1-12 are 1st rounders, 13-24 are 2nd rounders, and so on. Multiple players on a team in the same round range get bumped up a round meaning 2 2nd round players would be a 2nd and a 3rd. It's not foolproof but it is pretty fair.


I have a question about this because I'm contemplating starting a football keeper league this year and the draft principles should be the same. What happens if you draft a player in the 19th round and he immediately becomes a perrenial 1st rounder. Does his countdown go one round at a time, or should there be a mandatory minimum keeper value. It would seem unbalanced to let such a player stay on the same team for 19 seasons. Would you also set a maximum on the number of years that you could keep one player?

Even then, would it be fair to keep that player at an 18th, 17th and 16th round value each year that you kept him if it were a three year max keeper?

Also, am I reading correctly that you could keep your first round pick for only one additional year?

I'm trying to come up with a workable system myself.


Nothing is foolproof and you always find loopholes. I suppose that you could either just base the "penalty" on their Yahoo rank or you could just take 1 year off each season with a tweak. In your example, maybe a 3 year max rule would help combat that. 3 years kept and the player goes back into the player pool.
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Re: Keeper Rules

Postby Grouperman941 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:48 am

CBMGreatOne wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
We thought we had a solution a few years ago -- we went from 6 mandatory keepers to from 0-8 keepers with an supplemental draft. (I found this system to work, as it helped my team go from a middle-of-the packer to a contender lol.)


I don't see how potentially keeping more players would stop the rich from getting richer. All that it does is potentially allow the better teams to keep more players. Some possible solutions would be to keep less players or put a draft round value on the players and remove 1 year after each season. Once a player drops down to 0, he goes back into the draft. Then, set up your draft as an actual complete draft. If I keep Jeter as a 1st rounder (after a few years), he is my 1st round pick. Hope this makes sense.

To clarify, let me back up. Let's say that you drafted Jeter in the 3rd round in 2005. During the 2006 draft, if you wanted to keep Jeter, he would be your 2nd round pick. During the draft, you could just select Jeter as your 2nd rounder. During the 2007 draft, you could keep Jeter as your 1st round pick. Of course, this would need to be specified before the draft. Once a player's draft value dropped to 0, he would have to go back into the pool. This would be applicable is the Jeter owner kept him through 2007.

Since your league has already been running for years, you could either start from scratch or just apply draft round values based on Yahoo rank. I prefer the latter. Just do it based on simple math. In a 12 teamer, ranks 1-12 are 1st rounders, 13-24 are 2nd rounders, and so on. Multiple players on a team in the same round range get bumped up a round meaning 2 2nd round players would be a 2nd and a 3rd. It's not foolproof but it is pretty fair.


I have a question about this because I'm contemplating starting a football keeper league this year and the draft principles should be the same. What happens if you draft a player in the 19th round and he immediately becomes a perrenial 1st rounder. Does his countdown go one round at a time, or should there be a mandatory minimum keeper value. It would seem unbalanced to let such a player stay on the same team for 19 seasons. Would you also set a maximum on the number of years that you could keep one player?

Even then, would it be fair to keep that player at an 18th, 17th and 16th round value each year that you kept him if it were a three year max keeper?

Also, am I reading correctly that you could keep your first round pick for only one additional year?

I'm trying to come up with a workable system myself.


First, I think it is most definitely fair that you would reap the benefits of a prospect you'd drafted. Everyone had the same chance.

We are thinking of setting a minimum draft round for keepers, like maybe 6, which would apply for anyone taken after the 6th round plus free agents.

And actually, under Lo's system, I don't think you could keep that first rounder.
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Re: Keeper Rules

Postby Charlie4 » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:43 am

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