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Lets talk Verlander

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Re: Lets talk Verlander

Postby dillpickle » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:10 pm

High Heater wrote:
Ender wrote:Sell high. Low BABIP, high LOB%. He hasn't pitched much better than last year he just has a much lower ERA. He has also been abused over the last year and a half and another second half fade is more likely than not.


um a discrepancy of 21 IP/H is looking consistent to me. the abuse part i could agree with which is definetly somethign to spark conversation on



Can one of you define to me what is "abuse" when it realates to MLB starting pitchers? Verlander averaged 99 pitches a start last year. He threw 120 plus pitches in only two starts, which were 4 1/2 months apart. Just wondering what "abuse" is these days? Although I think we're getting to this point, I dread the day when MLB starters don't go over 80 pitches a start. Probably be the time I call it a career as a MLB fan.
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Re: Lets talk Verlander

Postby Ender » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:18 pm

dillpickle wrote:
High Heater wrote:
Ender wrote:Sell high. Low BABIP, high LOB%. He hasn't pitched much better than last year he just has a much lower ERA. He has also been abused over the last year and a half and another second half fade is more likely than not.


um a discrepancy of 21 IP/H is looking consistent to me. the abuse part i could agree with which is definetly somethign to spark conversation on



Can one of you define to me what is "abuse" when it realates to MLB starting pitchers? Verlander averaged 99 pitches a start last year. He threw 120 plus pitches in only two starts, which were 4 1/2 months apart. Just wondering what "abuse" is these days? Although I think we're getting to this point, I dread the day when MLB starters don't go over 80 pitches a start. Probably be the time I call it a career as a MLB fan.


Its not his average pitches per game which were a bit high for someone so young, its more the fact he had never thrown over 130 IP's in his career and then jumped to 207 IP thrown between regular season and the playoffs. A usage jump like that has shown very strong correlations to arm fatigue and injuries.
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Re: Lets talk Verlander

Postby moochman » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:39 pm

I know it seems like he's thrown a lot of innings for someone so young, but consider his pitching style. He has a very fluid motion that allows him to throw hard with ease all game long. He isn't straining to throw a 95+ MPH fastball. Pitch 100 looks easier for him than pitch 10.
Fatigue could still be an issue, being he is still young in his career, but he rested a lot before this season, something that he hadn't done before. If I had Verlander, I'd keep him.
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Re: Lets talk Verlander

Postby Ender » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:03 am

moochman wrote:I know it seems like he's thrown a lot of innings for someone so young, but consider his pitching style. He has a very fluid motion that allows him to throw hard with ease all game long. He isn't straining to throw a 95+ MPH fastball. Pitch 100 looks easier for him than pitch 10.
Fatigue could still be an issue, being he is still young in his career, but he rested a lot before this season, something that he hadn't done before. If I had Verlander, I'd keep him.


There is absolutely no reason to keep him if you can sell him high, thats the entire point of sellign high. If you can convince soemone else that hes a stud then getting back a sure thing stud for him is the right choice 100% of the time. I think people get too hung up on young guys, we aren't saying get rid of him for a bunch of crap, we are saying if you can get a more sure thing for him then do it because there is at least a little uncertainty with him.
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Re: Lets talk Verlander

Postby The Cow » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:10 am

If I were a Verlander owner i would try and trade him. Because you can get a very high return on him the media talks him up which always helps. Verlander is a good pitcher nothing outstanding fantasy wise. I think Verlander will fade a bit down the stretch. Trade him while his value is high. To the guy who dealt away Verlander for Holliday good move, I would rather have Holliday.

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Re: Lets talk Verlander

Postby TheA'sFatLeadoffMan » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:19 am

I can get Verlander for Bay right now if I made the offer, just don't know how much I trust him.
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Re: Lets talk Verlander

Postby tinfoilxtouch » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:12 am

Ender wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to keep him if you can sell him high, thats the entire point of sellign high. If you can convince soemone else that hes a stud then getting back a sure thing stud for him is the right choice 100% of the time. I think people get too hung up on young guys, we aren't saying get rid of him for a bunch of crap, we are saying if you can get a more sure thing for him then do it because there is at least a little uncertainty with him.


Who is more certain in terms of pitchers? Unless you can get Johan or Peavy for him (yeah, sure...) then I really don't know who you want. All of the normal aces (Oswalt, Carp, Webb) are off to below-average starts. All of the top pitchers this season like Haren are just as iffy as Verlander.
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Re: Lets talk Verlander

Postby Ender » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:20 am

I would trade him for Oswalt or Webb in a heartbeat, those are good examples of the types of trade you want.
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Re: Lets talk Verlander

Postby J35J » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:36 am

Ender wrote:I would trade him for Oswalt or Webb in a heartbeat, those are good examples of the types of trade you want.



Call me crazy but I would keep Verlander....Oswalt and Webb may be safer bets but I think Verlanders upside is greater and wouldn't be surprised in the least if he finished the season with better numbers across the board.


With all that said if I owned Oswalt or Webb I wouldn't pull the trigger for Verlander either. When I think players are very close together I usually feel safest keeping the guy I owned originally.
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Re: Lets talk Verlander

Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:46 am

J35J wrote:
Ender wrote:I would trade him for Oswalt or Webb in a heartbeat, those are good examples of the types of trade you want.



Call me crazy but I would keep Verlander....Oswalt and Webb may be safer bets but I think Verlanders upside is greater and wouldn't be surprised in the least if he finished the season with better numbers across the board.


With all that said if I owned Oswalt or Webb I wouldn't pull the trigger for Verlander either. When I think players are very close together I usually feel safest keeping the guy I owned originally.


I don't think you are crazy at all because I agree...
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