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Postby LBJackal » Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:00 pm

Rhodes being 4 years older is a big deal.........the difference between a 27 year old and 30 year old isn't huge, and is actually not even a factor at all. How many people break down at age 30? But in your mid 30's, people tend to slide. Pecival isn't what he used to be. In Rhodes' entire career, he has only 2 seasons with an ERA under 3!!! His career ERA is 4.33, not exactly prime closer material. His career WHIP is 1.31. So much for lights out, eh? If you want to focus on only 2 of his 13 seasons, neither of which include last year, go ahead.

Rhodes might get you better value (I doubt it) but you said "they are not that far apart on my draft board" which is ridiculous. The only way Rhodes will be even close to Dotel is if he has a career year and Dotel loses the closer job for some reason. I don't see either of those things happening.
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Postby MikeDesh » Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:04 pm

Watch Danny Kolb. He converted 18 straight save opps. last year in his short stint in the closer's role.
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Postby mikcou » Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:07 pm

A lot of good choices but I think Marte will do well in Chicago along with the Rhodes and Dotel
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:37 pm

LBJackal wrote:Rhodes being 4 years older is a big deal.........the difference between a 27 year old and 30 year old isn't huge, and is actually not even a factor at all. How many people break down at age 30? But in your mid 30's, people tend to slide. Pecival isn't what he used to be. In Rhodes' entire career, he has only 2 seasons with an ERA under 3!!! His career ERA is 4.33, not exactly prime closer material. His career WHIP is 1.31. So much for lights out, eh? If you want to focus on only 2 of his 13 seasons, neither of which include last year, go ahead.

Rhodes might get you better value (I doubt it) but you said "they are not that far apart on my draft board" which is ridiculous. The only way Rhodes will be even close to Dotel is if he has a career year and Dotel loses the closer job for some reason. I don't see either of those things happening.


hey hey hey - now you've gone too far and made this personal - I'm 34! You young bucks think that you know everything - I'll have you know laddie that I am leading my hockey league in points and penalty minutes and I've never felt better ;-D

As for "old" pitchers sliding in their mid-30s, you are absolutely, stunningly and spectacularly wrong. You're going to have to back up that statement. RJ won the Cy when he was 36, 37, 38 and 39. Clemens won the Cy when he was 35, 36 and 39. There are plenty more examples but how about Eck who won the Cy and the NL MVP at age 38. I'm not saying the Rhodes is better because he is older, only that you are unequivocally wrong when you said that age should be a factor to consider when choosing Dotel over Rhodes.

I don't know what you have against Rhodes. Looking at the last three years stats (which is a good sample to use), even considering that he was injured last year and had a terrible year, he still has a three year WHIP of 0.98 behind only Foulke (0.95) Wagner (0.95) Rivera (0.96) and Pedro (0.97) - not bad.

And he is going into a great situation. He is guaranteed the closer job in an organization where Koch got 44 saves in 2002 (then he lost the closer job in Chicago) and where Foulke got 43 saves in 2003 (a year after getting only 11 for the White Sox and they gave up on him). He is also going to be handed the ball by Zito, Hudson, Mulder and Harden, again, not bad.

Dotel is in a good spot too, don't get me wrong - but he and Lidge are not exactly Ward and Henke yet. There will be some competition there and I feel that Lidge will steal some saves from Dotel.

You have clearly jumped on the Dotel bandwagon with both feet, that's fine, but there is no reason to dump on Rhodes. I believe that Dotel will get 40 saves and Rhodes will get 35 with similar ancillary numbers. The 10 rounds between the two of them is not worth 5 saves in my book. So it may be ridiculous, but what do I know?
Last edited by Mookie4ever on Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LBJackal » Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:46 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:RJ won the Cy when he was 36, 37, 38 and 39. Clemens won the Cy when he was 35, 36 and 39. I don't know what you have against Rhodes. Looking at the last three years stats (which is a good sample to use), even considering that he was injured last year and had a terrible year, he still has a three year WHIP of 0.98 behind only Foulke (0.95) Wagner (0.95) Rivera (0.96) and Pedro (0.97) - not bad.

You have clearly jumped on the Dotel bandwagon with both feet


First of all, Rhodes isn't near the player Unit & Rocket are. His age is definately a factor, just like it is for RJ. He showed last year that he isn't as good as his only 2 years of stardom. And what a surprise that "a good sample to use" includes his only good seasons out of 13.

How about considering he did abolutely nothing before that, and absolutely nothing after that? He isn't a big strikeout pitcher, and his career ERA and WHIP are terrible.

And about me liking Dotel: I don't think he's a sure thing to close all year. I'm not on his bandwagon at all. He's just a LOT better than Rhodes.
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Postby Andy1234 » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:10 pm

I think Dotel or Marte will have the best year
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:17 pm

LBJackal wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:RJ won the Cy when he was 36, 37, 38 and 39. Clemens won the Cy when he was 35, 36 and 39. I don't know what you have against Rhodes. Looking at the last three years stats (which is a good sample to use), even considering that he was injured last year and had a terrible year, he still has a three year WHIP of 0.98 behind only Foulke (0.95) Wagner (0.95) Rivera (0.96) and Pedro (0.97) - not bad.

You have clearly jumped on the Dotel bandwagon with both feet


First of all, Rhodes isn't near the player Unit & Rocket are. His age is definately a factor, just like it is for RJ. He showed last year that he isn't as good as his only 2 years of stardom. And what a surprise that "a good sample to use" includes his only good seasons out of 13.

How about considering he did abolutely nothing before that, and absolutely nothing after that? He isn't a big strikeout pitcher, and his career ERA and WHIP are terrible.

And about me liking Dotel: I don't think he's a sure thing to close all year. I'm not on his bandwagon at all. He's just a LOT better than Rhodes.


You are still not backing up your bald statements - why is age a factor for Rhodes but not for others? Where do you get your statement that pitchers start to break down when they are 34? Is it from TSN that said about Rhodes "his skills are fading as his age climbs"?

A lot of people use a three year sample. How many years back are we supposed to go? By the way, 4 years ago Dotel's ERA was 5.40 and 5 years ago it was 5.38. Are you suggesting that, even though Rhodes has had the 5th best WHIP over the past three years, he is a flash in the pan?
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Postby Jer19G » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:33 pm

Chacon plays for Col. :-o :-o :-o :-o

Rhodes will have a good season. He could also pick up wins that is how Oak uses their closers (Folke 9w's). Although Rhodes will not be nearly the closer Folke is.

Dotel is a stud. Kolb and both Corderos could be very good. So could A. Lopez if he gets the role in Toronto.
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Postby LBJackal » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:47 pm

Yes, Rhodes was a flash in the pan. 4 years ago Dotel was in his first full season, and was used as a starter half the time. Rhodes has been in the bullpen full time for 8 years. Over his 8 years as a reliever he has the following numbers, followed by Dotel's relief career:

3.46 ERA, 1.16 WHIP, 9.9 K/9
2.33 ERA, 1.02 WHIP, 11.2 K/9

So Dotel has clearly been better than Rhodes, Dotel is 4 years younger, and Dotel also did MUCH better last season.

Slice it any way ya like, Rhodes is not even close to Dotel. He's over the hill. I don't think I need to provide proof that as pitchers get into their mid 30's, they start to decline. Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens are the exceptions, not the rule. If you can't accept it now, you never will, so I'm done debating about this.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:42 am

Nice debate guys. MOOKIE, i'm impressed you know Caudill.

I don't think age is a big issue here. Rhodes best 2 years were in 01 and 02, and he was going good till he got hurt last year.
1st half, 2.99 era 1.02 whip. Dotel is better but, i'm not sure Lidge, who's pretty good, isn't in the picture somewhere. Rhodes job is more secure.
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