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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:22 pm

HOOTIE wrote:If the player isn't allowed in, i think it's wrong to include his stuff in. All or nothing. You can't say you don't belong here because you broke the rules, then turn around and put his memorabilia in. No Rose, no stuff either.


why?
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Postby TheYanks04 » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:24 pm

well, maybe they should put Rose's betting slips, pictures of his bookie's home, video tapes of his repeated denials and lies about gambling, the pen/pencil he used to place his bets, etc next to his glove and bat...it would work for me.
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Postby swarmee » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:40 pm

Anonymous wrote:Swarmee, you are one person here whose opinion I value. However I dont think he gets on the ballot and if he does, I dont think he gets the vote.

Well, I think you're right, mainly because voters aren't required to vote according to the rules. You saw that with Hideki Matsui in the ROY voting this year. And if it's proven he bet on baseball as a player as well, then that cinches it for me, too.
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Postby Guest » Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:54 am

The worst part was that he bet on his team to LOSE! Should he be called "Charlie Hustles except when he is getting 3 to 1 on the other team"???? ;-D
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Postby swingaway » Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:59 am

TheYanks04 wrote:well, maybe they should put Rose's betting slips, pictures of his bookie's home, video tapes of his repeated denials and lies about gambling, the pen/pencil he used to place his bets, etc next to his glove and bat...it would work for me.

agreeded see i can argue with a yankee fan
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Postby HOOTIE » Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:01 am

Mookie4ever wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:If the player isn't allowed in, i think it's wrong to include his stuff in. All or nothing. You can't say you don't belong here because you broke the rules, then turn around and put his memorabilia in. No Rose, no stuff either.


why?



It seems silly to me to say Rose doesn't belong in HOF, but at the same time, allow his stuff in.

HOF: say Pete, you can't get in, sorry, but can we use your bat and jersey in the HOF?

Kind of like the neighborhood kid no one likes, but has the bat and ball. Hey kid, you can watch us, if we can borrow your stuff?
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Postby KULCAT » Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:14 am

Mookie4ever wrote:
KULCAT wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:I don't know why it is so hard to draw a distinction between a person and the individual feats.

There are plenty of people whose accomplishments make it into the HOF but they do not. eg. the bat used by Hideki Matsui to hit a grand slam opening day 2003 is on display - does that mean that Matsui should also be in the HOF?

The feat can be remembered and preserved - that is one thing - that is why the memorabilia is on display. But to honour the person is something else entirely.

Thats saying that when guys get enshrined in the hall of fame and we say stuff like they are recognizing theire career were talking about how nice they were. Theyre getting in for numbers and making plays. Thats it. Barry Bonds is a big of a jurk as anyone else in sports and he´s gonna getting in because he was a great player. Maybe the should just let his bat and jersey in and keep him out cause he is such a jurk. That way you recognize his feats and not the person.

KULCAT wrote:The only thing that´s ever matter in the HOF is how good of a player you are and the guy is better than many that already there. You dont wanna let him near a baseball field, couldnt care less, but not acknowlodging his career, that doesnt make sense


The HOF and MLB have always taken a hard line on gambling (Shoeless Joe) and rightly so because it goes to the very root of the game and whether it is respectable or not. I'm not saying that any leniency will lead to the type of scorn and corruption reserved for boxing, but it may be the thin edge of the the wedge.

Ive never advocated for him to get his job back, just that he should be in the HOF cause he was a great player.

Finally, Rose's career is acknowledged - that is the whole point of the memorabilia - it is a compromise designed to acknowledge the career while not honouring an individual unworthy or honour.

I dont think they would be honoring Pete Rose the human being but how can you not honour the player. This is all that im saying, you can pretend he didnt play. There´s a big difference about a great moment and a great career. If matsui has his bat there is because of a a moment and that doesnt mean youre a great player but a great career does.


You started off this thread saying something else. You said that Ringolsby made an idiodic comment when he said "Rose does not need to be in the HOF to be recognized for his acheivements."

This is different from your new statement "you can (sic) pretend he didnt play". Your new statement is also wrong. The HOF does acknowledge that he played, ie. all of the Rose memorabilia.

What Ringolsby said is correct - the HOF recognizes his acheivements (and as athletic feats, they are worthy of recognition) but that does not necessitate putting Rose in and highlighting the man as opposed to the feats.


Same exact argument here. My statement is just the same as it was from the beggining you guys just keep writing my words for me. Ringolsby´s comment is idiotic cause i dont see how can you honour someone feats and not honour THE PLAYER who got them. That would be like honouring the fact the Hank Aaron broke the all time homerun record and not honour his career for having all those great years and being a good player for so long that it gave him the oportunity and to brake the record. Great careers were played by great players and thats why i say Rose should be in.
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Postby KULCAT » Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:18 am

HOOTIE wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:If the player isn't allowed in, i think it's wrong to include his stuff in. All or nothing. You can't say you don't belong here because you broke the rules, then turn around and put his memorabilia in. No Rose, no stuff either.


why?



It seems silly to me to say Rose doesn't belong in HOF, but at the same time, allow his stuff in.

HOF: say Pete, you can't get in, sorry, but can we use your bat and jersey in the HOF?

I agree, loved the analogy.

Kind of like the neighborhood kid no one likes, but has the bat and ball. Hey kid, you can watch us, if we can borrow your stuff?
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:48 am

HOOTIE wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:If the player isn't allowed in, i think it's wrong to include his stuff in. All or nothing. You can't say you don't belong here because you broke the rules, then turn around and put his memorabilia in. No Rose, no stuff either.


why?



It seems silly to me to say Rose doesn't belong in HOF, but at the same time, allow his stuff in.

HOF: say Pete, you can't get in, sorry, but can we use your bat and jersey in the HOF?

Kind of like the neighborhood kid no one likes, but has the bat and ball. Hey kid, you can watch us, if we can borrow your stuff?


To me, it makes sense. Because if you put his jersey and his bat in there you draw more attention to his absence. More people will know that, no matter what you do, you can't get into the Hall if you gamble on the game.

I don't know. I kind of like the idea of his conspicuous absence.
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Postby LBJackal » Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:23 am

DK wrote:
LBJackal wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:The HOF and MLB have always taken a hard line on gambling (Shoeless Joe) and rightly so because it goes to the very root of the game and whether it is respectable or not. I'm not saying that any leniency will lead to the type of scorn and corruption reserved for boxing, but it may be the thin edge of the the wedge.

Finally, Rose's career is acknowledged - that is the whole point of the memorabilia - it is a compromise designed to acknowledge the career while not honouring an individual unworthy or honour.


Most of what you said there was good, but Shoeless Joe wasn't accused of gambling. He was accused of taking money to lose. Which he did NOT do. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows he was involved in the scandal. He was clearly the best player in the 1919 WS, didn't make any errors, and there's no proof he ever talked to any of the people who paid off some members of the Black Sox. Joe gets a bad rap, he was innocent.


In that world series, three triples were hit to left field when Shoeless was out there. Triples NEVER go to left field. Make your own distinction.


Three triples were hit to left center field, all of which were fielded by the center fielder Happy Felsch. Joe led his team in batting average, hits, runs, HR, and RBI during the WS.

Make your own distinction.
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