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IDIOTIC COMMENT

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Postby LBJackal » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:11 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:The HOF and MLB have always taken a hard line on gambling (Shoeless Joe) and rightly so because it goes to the very root of the game and whether it is respectable or not. I'm not saying that any leniency will lead to the type of scorn and corruption reserved for boxing, but it may be the thin edge of the the wedge.

Finally, Rose's career is acknowledged - that is the whole point of the memorabilia - it is a compromise designed to acknowledge the career while not honouring an individual unworthy or honour.


Most of what you said there was good, but Shoeless Joe wasn't accused of gambling. He was accused of taking money to lose. Which he did NOT do. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows he was involved in the scandal. He was clearly the best player in the 1919 WS, didn't make any errors, and there's no proof he ever talked to any of the people who paid off some members of the Black Sox. Joe gets a bad rap, he was innocent.
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Postby KULCAT » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:13 pm

Transmogrifier wrote:
KULCAT wrote:The way i see it if it such a cardinal seen that you are not be a part of baseball then go all the way, dont let his stuff in, dont talk about him, erase his stats(cause he got him, not MLB), dont show the film of him sliding home and knocking the catcher out and keep pretending the wasnt there, cause thats what not letting him in the hall of fame means, saying he didnt play.


That is very irrational. So baseball players that aren't enshrined in the Hall never played?

No, no. Dont put words in my mouth.That doesnt make any sense, you just took what i said and answered it like i said something else. If he has stats to be enshirned as one of the best players of all time(and he does) he should be there, thats what im saying. Players that arent enshrined werent good enough. Thats what im saying. Obviously i dissagree with some of the one´s that have gotten in and other that have not and i think should but in general the rule of thumb is that if you were great player you get in

Have you been to the Hall? It's not all about being a "Hall of Famer". It honors baseball and baseball records in addition to the greatest players that ever played the game.

And i guess all those gloves get their own inducting ceremony. So what if i ever been to the hall? Thats your take, not god´s truth. Mine is that all those moments and memorabilia dont mean squat without the players. Players get in, and theire stuff get in because of them so we recognizing what they did.

Otherwise, things like Josh Beckett's Game 6 jersey would never be allowed in the Hall. I mean, he's not a Hall of Famer, so by your logic he never played. This is crazy.

Again dont put words in my mouth. We can all use a little criteria herea and see that Becket and Matsui havent done enough to get in so its not the same situation that Rose´s. Its completely taken out context.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:17 pm

LBJackal wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:The HOF and MLB have always taken a hard line on gambling (Shoeless Joe) and rightly so because it goes to the very root of the game and whether it is respectable or not. I'm not saying that any leniency will lead to the type of scorn and corruption reserved for boxing, but it may be the thin edge of the the wedge.

Finally, Rose's career is acknowledged - that is the whole point of the memorabilia - it is a compromise designed to acknowledge the career while not honouring an individual unworthy or honour.


Most of what you said there was good, but Shoeless Joe wasn't accused of gambling. He was accused of taking money to lose. Which he did NOT do. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows he was involved in the scandal. He was clearly the best player in the 1919 WS, didn't make any errors, and there's no proof he ever talked to any of the people who paid off some members of the Black Sox. Joe gets a bad rap, he was innocent.


I saw the movie too.

I never said that he gambled - I said that MLB takes a hard stance on gambling. He was accused to throwing the game to assist gamblers. That there was no proof and that he performed at such a high level proves my point - regardless of the outcome, MLB will nail you if you are involved/suspected of being involved in gambling.

I like it that way. If I am going to bet on baseball (and I do) I want to know that everything is above board and that MLB does not tolerate even a hint of a fix.
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Postby KULCAT » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:24 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:I don't know why it is so hard to draw a distinction between a person and the individual feats.

There are plenty of people whose accomplishments make it into the HOF but they do not. eg. the bat used by Hideki Matsui to hit a grand slam opening day 2003 is on display - does that mean that Matsui should also be in the HOF?

The feat can be remembered and preserved - that is one thing - that is why the memorabilia is on display. But to honour the person is something else entirely.

Thats saying that when guys get enshrined in the hall of fame and we say stuff like they are recognizing theire career were talking about how nice they were. Theyre getting in for numbers and making plays. Thats it. Barry Bonds is a big of a jurk as anyone else in sports and he´s gonna getting in because he was a great player. Maybe the should just let his bat and jersey in and keep him out cause he is such a jurk. That way you recognize his feats and not the person.

KULCAT wrote:The only thing that´s ever matter in the HOF is how good of a player you are and the guy is better than many that already there. You dont wanna let him near a baseball field, couldnt care less, but not acknowlodging his career, that doesnt make sense


The HOF and MLB have always taken a hard line on gambling (Shoeless Joe) and rightly so because it goes to the very root of the game and whether it is respectable or not. I'm not saying that any leniency will lead to the type of scorn and corruption reserved for boxing, but it may be the thin edge of the the wedge.

Ive never advocated for him to get his job back, just that he should be in the HOF cause he was a great player.

Finally, Rose's career is acknowledged - that is the whole point of the memorabilia - it is a compromise designed to acknowledge the career while not honouring an individual unworthy or honour.

I dont think they would be honoring Pete Rose the human being but how can you not honour the player. This is all that im saying, you can pretend he didnt play. There´s a big difference about a great moment and a great career. If matsui has his bat there is because of a a moment and that doesnt mean youre a great player but a great career does.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:40 pm

KULCAT wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:I don't know why it is so hard to draw a distinction between a person and the individual feats.

There are plenty of people whose accomplishments make it into the HOF but they do not. eg. the bat used by Hideki Matsui to hit a grand slam opening day 2003 is on display - does that mean that Matsui should also be in the HOF?

The feat can be remembered and preserved - that is one thing - that is why the memorabilia is on display. But to honour the person is something else entirely.

Thats saying that when guys get enshrined in the hall of fame and we say stuff like they are recognizing theire career were talking about how nice they were. Theyre getting in for numbers and making plays. Thats it. Barry Bonds is a big of a jurk as anyone else in sports and he´s gonna getting in because he was a great player. Maybe the should just let his bat and jersey in and keep him out cause he is such a jurk. That way you recognize his feats and not the person.

KULCAT wrote:The only thing that´s ever matter in the HOF is how good of a player you are and the guy is better than many that already there. You dont wanna let him near a baseball field, couldnt care less, but not acknowlodging his career, that doesnt make sense


The HOF and MLB have always taken a hard line on gambling (Shoeless Joe) and rightly so because it goes to the very root of the game and whether it is respectable or not. I'm not saying that any leniency will lead to the type of scorn and corruption reserved for boxing, but it may be the thin edge of the the wedge.

Ive never advocated for him to get his job back, just that he should be in the HOF cause he was a great player.

Finally, Rose's career is acknowledged - that is the whole point of the memorabilia - it is a compromise designed to acknowledge the career while not honouring an individual unworthy or honour.

I dont think they would be honoring Pete Rose the human being but how can you not honour the player. This is all that im saying, you can pretend he didnt play. There´s a big difference about a great moment and a great career. If matsui has his bat there is because of a a moment and that doesnt mean youre a great player but a great career does.


You started off this thread saying something else. You said that Ringolsby made an idiodic comment when he said "Rose does not need to be in the HOF to be recognized for his acheivements."

This is different from your new statement "you can (sic) pretend he didnt play". Your new statement is also wrong. The HOF does acknowledge that he played, ie. all of the Rose memorabilia.

What Ringolsby said is correct - the HOF recognizes his acheivements (and as athletic feats, they are worthy of recognition) but that does not necessitate putting Rose in and highlighting the man as opposed to the feats.
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Re: IDIOTIC COMMENT

Postby wrveres » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:50 pm

KULCAT wrote: So i guess we now should talk about how Rose´s bat had a wonderful career and how his glove gave it a 100% everytime IT went to the field. I wonder how many world series rings does that glove have or if the bat will go on a book tour signing his autobiography "Woodie, from the forest to the big leagues" and he would talk about how when he was young he just wanted to be a Xmas tree but then he found out IT had the ability to hover around the plate and hit the ball without anyone´s help.
I suppose being coherent is not needed to write a column this days. Seriously one thing is to say you dont want Rose on the HOF but another is to say is enough if his jockstrapp is there is just completely moronic!!



Put Pete Roses jock-strap in the HOF I am all for it. ;-D I am pretty sure that his jock-strap never layed 2000.00 on the Reds to win. Or his cleats for that matter.

As for a "Plaque" of Pete bieng placed in he HOF ..... NEVER !!!!
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Postby DK » Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:01 pm

LBJackal wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:The HOF and MLB have always taken a hard line on gambling (Shoeless Joe) and rightly so because it goes to the very root of the game and whether it is respectable or not. I'm not saying that any leniency will lead to the type of scorn and corruption reserved for boxing, but it may be the thin edge of the the wedge.

Finally, Rose's career is acknowledged - that is the whole point of the memorabilia - it is a compromise designed to acknowledge the career while not honouring an individual unworthy or honour.


Most of what you said there was good, but Shoeless Joe wasn't accused of gambling. He was accused of taking money to lose. Which he did NOT do. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows he was involved in the scandal. He was clearly the best player in the 1919 WS, didn't make any errors, and there's no proof he ever talked to any of the people who paid off some members of the Black Sox. Joe gets a bad rap, he was innocent.


In that world series, three triples were hit to left field when Shoeless was out there. Triples NEVER go to left field. Make your own distinction.
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Postby swarmee » Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:23 pm

Anonymous wrote:Just so I understand you correctly, you are saying that if Rose bet as a player, you would support a ban on his entry in the HOF?

That's true. If he bet as a player, it would count towards his "player" years, and I don't feel he should be let in. I didn't read the Dowd report, so I didn't realize there was proof of him betting as a player. If that's been proven, then I agree he shouldn't be taken off the MLB Ineligible List, and not get put on the ballot for the HOF.
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Postby HOOTIE » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:10 pm

If the player isn't allowed in, i think it's wrong to include his stuff in. All or nothing. You can't say you don't belong here because you broke the rules, then turn around and put his memorabilia in. No Rose, no stuff either.
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Postby sooner711 » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:18 pm

HOOTIE wrote:If the player isn't allowed in, i think it's wrong to include his stuff in. All or nothing. You can't say you don't belong here because you broke the rules, then turn around and put his memorabilia in. No Rose, no stuff either.


I agree, throw it all out!
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