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Re: rose should be in the HOF

Postby Transmogrifier » Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:06 pm

baseball_playa18 wrote:betting on the game is wrong, but so is doing drugs, domestic abuse and things of that nature which have been committed by other members of the Hall. Pete is no worse and is actually a lot better than a lot of the player in it


I should really dig up our old arguments about this.

Yes, in the grand scale of things, Pete Rose is not worse than a man who beats his wife.

However, as far as baseball is concerned, the greatest sin is gambling on the game. And gambling on your own team when you have inside knowledge, the power to affect your team's performance? That's why it's different.

It is baseball's greatest sin, not humanity's.
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Re: rose should be in the HOF

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:50 pm

baseball_playa18 wrote:betting on the game is wrong, but so is doing drugs, domestic abuse and things of that nature which have been committed by other members of the Hall. Pete is no worse and is actually a lot better than a lot of the player in it


However, neither doing drugs nor domestic abuse, nor many of the other things you describe are considered actions which lead to a ban. Betting is.
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Postby Guest » Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:56 pm

swarmee wrote:Here's the rub: according to the HOF ballots, if a player is put on the ballot, they are to be judged for membership based on what happened on and off the field WHEN THEY WERE PLAYERS. Since Pete did not gamble while he was a player, he should be in the HOF. Now if he was trying to go in as a manager, it would apply for his managerial days, and in that case he shouldn't make it into the Hall as a manager. But based on the rules governing entry into the HOF, he's a lock if his name is put on the ballot next year.


Just so I understand you correctly, you are saying that if Rose bet as a player, you would support a ban on his entry in the HOF?

I ask this because the Dowd report clearly shows that Pete was betting on baseball in 1985 and 1986, while he was a player. His recent claims that he did not bet on baseball until he was a manager are just another attempt by Rose to whitewash his guilt. Do you really buy this lie after he lied to us for decades about these allegations?
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Postby The Zot » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:01 pm

Since Pete did not gamble while he was a player, he should be in the HOF.


Hey Swarmee....what makes you believe he didnt gamble as a player? He's been lying about gambling as a manager for 14 years....so if you believe him now...then Clinton should never have been impeached, and I have some land in the Mojave I will sell you very very cheap. :-?
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Postby Lofunzo » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:02 pm

baseball_playa18 wrote:betting on the game is wrong, but so is doing drugs, domestic abuse and things of that nature which have been committed by other members of the Hall. Pete is no worse and is actually a lot better than a lot of the player in it


I would agree with you if there was also a sign in EVERY clubhouse that stated that if you do drugs, etc., you are banned for life. He saw that every day for his 24 or so years as a player. He knew the consequences and decided that the reward was greater than the risk.
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Postby Lofunzo » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:07 pm

swarmee wrote:
Anonymous wrote:But in Pete you have someone who broke baseball law and then lied. Idont think even his shoes or his bat should be in there.

Here's the rub: according to the HOF ballots, if a player is put on the ballot, they are to be judged for membership based on what happened on and off the field WHEN THEY WERE PLAYERS. Since Pete did not gamble while he was a player, he should be in the HOF. Now if he was trying to go in as a manager, it would apply for his managerial days, and in that case he shouldn't make it into the Hall as a manager. But based on the rules governing entry into the HOF, he's a lock if his name is put on the ballot next year.


Then how do you explain that there are people in the HOF based entirely on their managerial careers? That's hogwash. While I know that he would get in as a player and not as a manager, I find it hard to believe that he just started gambling when he became a manager.

I used to be on his side but for the last decade+, he has hogged every camera possible to profess his innocence and now, he tries to hog every one in order to sell his book. He is all about Pete and getting what he wants.

1 thing to notice here is that he always had the public on his side but that is changing. People are sick of him. I say that the only way that he gets in (and I don't want him in) is that it should be voted on by his peers. The Veteran's Committee should just vote after he doesn't get the necessary standard votes again.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:10 pm

IMO, Rose will never get into the hall. Because its a form of a popularity contest for most of the voters, I think they simply wont vote him in. He has upset too many voters over the last couple yrs. Had he played his cards right and stayed quiet he would have had a much better chance. Not now though - he's toast.
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Postby KULCAT » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:16 pm

I cant agree with Rose´s stuff being in the HOF and Rose himself not being there. Why is it ok for baseball to make money out of Rose. If you dont get Rose in HOF then youre saying he didnt play a career, that he didnt get those hits of steal those bases etc.. so why did i watch Rose the other day on ESPN classic. Im pretty sure baseball owns the rights of many games where Rose was a part of and they sell them so its ok to accept that he was a great player but not recognize him for it?(well maybe they could edit the scenes so on a really close shot we see the glove sliding home and maybe then the glove slapping other hands and pumping itself into the air). Is it free to enter the HOF halls? Cause if theire not and you pass down the corridor where his bat and glove is then i guess its ok for Rose to be in the hall.
The way i see it if it such a cardinal seen that you are not be a part of baseball then go all the way, dont let his stuff in, dont talk about him, erase his stats(cause he got him, not MLB), dont show the film of him sliding home and knocking the catcher out and keep pretending the wasnt there, cause thats what not letting him in the hall of fame means, saying he didnt play.
And im sorry but youre not gonna tell me
that a much bigger crime is being committed against baseball by letting guys cheat theire way into stardom using substances.
The only thing that´s ever matter in the HOF is how good of a player you are and the guy is better than many that already there. You dont wanna let him near a baseball field, couldnt care less, but not acknowlodging his career, that doesnt make sense
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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:28 pm

I don't know why it is so hard to draw a distinction between a person and the individual feats.

There are plenty of people whose accomplishments make it into the HOF but they do not. eg. the bat used by Hideki Matsui to hit a grand slam opening day 2003 is on display - does that mean that Matsui should also be in the HOF?

The feat can be remembered and preserved - that is one thing - that is why the memorabilia is on display. But to honour the person is something else entirely.

KULCAT wrote:The only thing that´s ever matter in the HOF is how good of a player you are and the guy is better than many that already there. You dont wanna let him near a baseball field, couldnt care less, but not acknowlodging his career, that doesnt make sense


The HOF and MLB have always taken a hard line on gambling (Shoeless Joe) and rightly so because it goes to the very root of the game and whether it is respectable or not. I'm not saying that any leniency will lead to the type of scorn and corruption reserved for boxing, but it may be the thin edge of the the wedge.

Finally, Rose's career is acknowledged - that is the whole point of the memorabilia - it is a compromise designed to acknowledge the career while not honouring an individual unworthy or honour.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:00 pm

KULCAT wrote:The way i see it if it such a cardinal seen that you are not be a part of baseball then go all the way, dont let his stuff in, dont talk about him, erase his stats(cause he got him, not MLB), dont show the film of him sliding home and knocking the catcher out and keep pretending the wasnt there, cause thats what not letting him in the hall of fame means, saying he didnt play.


That is very irrational. So baseball players that aren't enshrined in the Hall never played?

Have you been to the Hall? It's not all about being a "Hall of Famer". It honors baseball and baseball records in addition to the greatest players that ever played the game.

Otherwise, things like Josh Beckett's Game 6 jersey would never be allowed in the Hall. I mean, he's not a Hall of Famer, so by your logic he never played. This is crazy.
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