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Why veto?

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Why veto?

Postby Oatsdad » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:43 pm

I gotta admit I hate the "veto" concept. The only time I think trades should be vetoed is if it's patently obvious that there's collusion at work. I mean, if someone trades Joe Blow and Fred Flop for Jose Reyes and Johan Santana, then it's clear there's shady dealings afoot.

But if it's just a trade you don't think is even... so what? That happens in real baseball, and the other owners can't veto. I don't see why my - or your - deals should be subject to the whims of other people, especially since they're not objective parties.

Case in point: a trade I just made. As I mentioned in another thread, the other guy offered me Derrek Lee for Nick Swisher and Troy Glaus. I saw he was going to DROP Matt Holliday, so I asked if he'd throw Holliday in as well. He agreed.

To my shock, the trade went through - it didn't get enough vetoes to die. If it HAD been vetoed, though, I'd have been pissed. The other guy's not a newbie, and the trade was basically his idea. I don't know him so we're not teaming up for some unfair advantage. He clearly doesn't know what he's doing, but I don't think it's up to me, you or whoever to protect players from their stupidity.

So please explain why I - or you, or whoever - should be punished for being able to pull off lopsided trades? Who says this whole thing has to be even all the time?
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Re: Why veto?

Postby JTWood » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:52 am

Oatsdad wrote:So please explain why I - or you, or whoever - should be punished for being able to pull off lopsided trades? Who says this whole thing has to be even all the time?

To quote Mitch Hedberg, "It's like some weird quiz where he revealed the answer first."

Oatsdad wrote:The only time I think trades should be vetoed is if it's patently obvious that there's collusion at work. I mean, if someone trades Joe Blow and Fred Flop for Jose Reyes and Johan Santana, then it's clear there's shady dealings afoot.

If you think "it's clear" that a lopsided deal is synonymous with collusion, why can't others feel that way, too?
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Re: Why veto?

Postby talan37 » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:43 am

Physically proving collusion is nearly impossible, and whether its collusion or not, many people believe that other owners in the league should be able to step in simply to retain some modicum of balance, because whether its collusion or not, if I trade 2 crappy players for 2 studs(even if the other owner doesn't know any better) its going to completely unbalance the league, and I shouldn't be rewarded for trolling for trades/preying on newbies. I hate to use this cliche i see all over this board, but if your in a league where someone will flat out drop holliday, who has been one of the best producers to date in any format, and is widely considered a 2nd round draft pick, you might want to consider finding another league. If someone in my league dropped holliday and someone else picked him up, I would automatically assume that it was collusion, because no owner actually trying to win, and not actively cheating would drop a player like that.
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Re: Why veto?

Postby Oatsdad » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:05 pm

JTWood wrote:If you think "it's clear" that a lopsided deal is synonymous with collusion, why can't others feel that way, too?


There's lop-sided and there's insane/probable collusion - they're two different things.

Lop-sided: me getting D. Lee and Holliday for Glaus and Swisher

Insane: someone getting D. Lee and Holliday for Paul Bako and BJ "Out for the Year" Ryan

I just hate the whole veto concept. I think it's too often abused...
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Re: Why veto?

Postby Oatsdad » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:12 pm

talan37 wrote:if I trade 2 crappy players for 2 studs(even if the other owner doesn't know any better) its going to completely unbalance the league, and I shouldn't be rewarded for trolling for trades/preying on newbies.


Well, it's one thing to veto a trade that's insanely unbalanced. But in the case of my DLee/Holliday for Swisher/Glaus, the player who receives the latter two does get some value. Is it commensurate with what he gave? Nope, but it's not like Swisher and Glaus are scrubs.

And that's the problem I have. As I see other trades that are vetoed - or discussed as vetoable - most seem lop-sided but not absurdly so. I just don't think that players - especially those who are in competition with the traders involved - should be able to cancel deals. Have a commish do that in extreme cases, but 99% of the trades should be accepted...


I hate to use this cliche i see all over this board, but if your in a league where someone will flat out drop holliday, who has been one of the best producers to date in any format, and is widely considered a 2nd round draft pick, you might want to consider finding another league. If someone in my league dropped holliday and someone else picked him up, I would automatically assume that it was collusion, because no owner actually trying to win, and not actively cheating would drop a player like that.


The funny thing is that this guy IS trying to win. He's not a newbie, and he's rejected some decent trade offers. I have no idea what he's doing, and neither does he, obviously, but I see no evidence of potential collusion.

Case in point: the Holliday thing. When our trade was going to be DLee for Glaus/Swisher, he planned to simply drop Holliday. Let's say he'd wanted a buddy to pick up Holliday once this happened. Dropping a player as part of a trade doesn't work in that regard, since the second player won't know exactly when Holliday hits the wire.

In addition, if he dropped Holliday so someone else could get him, he would've refused to include him in the trade with me. Maybe others think this guy is in cahoots with me, but I know that's not the case - I wouldn't know this guy from Adam.

As far as the league itself goes, it's a Yahoo public one. Next year I'll probably look through the independent teams more - or find one here. You can find great players on Yahoo - and incompetents like this guy. But I obviously can't quit now and just give up - I'll change next year...
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Re: Why veto?

Postby Lofunzo » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:50 pm

But if it's just a trade you don't think is even... so what? That happens in real baseball, and the other owners can't veto. I don't see why my - or your - deals should be subject to the whims of other people, especially since they're not objective parties.


I don't like this analogy at all. That is, unless it's a keeper league, you are out of it now, and those players and picks will be used to build your team for the future. Comparing a salary dump in real baseball to a lopsided trade in a non-keeper league isn't fair, IMHO. 2 totally different things.
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Re: Why veto?

Postby Oatsdad » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:35 pm

Lofunzo wrote:I don't like this analogy at all. That is, unless it's a keeper league, you are out of it now, and those players and picks will be used to build your team for the future. Comparing a salary dump in real baseball to a lopsided trade in a non-keeper league isn't fair, IMHO. 2 totally different things.


I wasn't discussing salary dumps specifically. I alluded to the fact that if the Orioles want to make a bad trade with the Astros, the other teams can't "veto" that. If someone gets taken in a trade, that's their problem - why is there this Big Brother side to fantasy sports? I don't like it...
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