700/500 .. Let me know when any other player comes close.
Exactly. That should be the end of this discussion. Your keep arguing about how should have HR and whatever. Guess what? Hitting- Bonds is better. More HR and this with Ray Durham(compared to Lou Gehrig) hitting behind him. Even if you want to give the SLIGHT edge to Ruth here, like it was pointed out earilier, it says ballplayer. So even if you give a slight victory to Ruth on hitting, Speed: No Comparison at all. 500 SB is an accomlishment for any player, ecpecially one with 700 HR. Defense: No COmparison at all. Bonds has won 8 Gold Gloves.(the most ever GG at OF is 12. Whoelse? Mays) Bonds is the complete package. 5 tool player. Ruth was just a big guy how hit HR. Again, no knock on Ruth, buts its not close.
But you are not taking in to consideration Ruth's pitching ability which in my mind at least makes up for the 500 SBs. Ruth didn't come up to the plate much at all in his first 4 seasons. His numbers would be far superior at the plate if he had. So those pitching numbers have to account for something. 500 SBs? So Bonds was faster than Ruth... You could pull guys off the street that could steal 500 bases over the course of 20 years. CAN'T pull guys off the street that would be able to pitch and get MLB hitters out.
You keep saying with Ray durham hitting behind him. He didn't have Ray hitting behind him his whole career. And Durham is a pretty good hitter when healthy. Also, around the time Durham was hitting behind him is around the time when his strikezone shrunk to nothing. I'm pretty sure Ruth didn't have that strikezone.
This debate is like comparing genetically engineered corn(Bonds) to plain old corn(Ruth) in terms of resistance to pests. If plain old corn were genetically engineered well then you could compare the two strands.
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Bonilla- one of the more feared hitters during this time. Van Slyke- Good all round hitter Matt Williams - Probably breaks the homerun record in 1994 before Big Mac and Bonds Will Clark - Great all round hitter, perennial all star Jeff Kent - Best hitting second baseman of all time. Won an MVP and it wasn't because of his D. JT Snow - This is at a time where JT could actually drive the ball and was consistently around 25 dingers, 95RBIs and .300 BA Rich Aurilla - hit 37 HRs one year he hit behind bonds Reggie Sanders - Decent power speed guy in the lineup Ray Durham - Very good hitting 2nd bagger Ellis Burks - Had some very productive years in SF Moises Alou - Great hitter
So you see, Bonds didn't do all this with Just measly little Ray durham for protection. And it's a stupid argument when you don't take in to consideration why Bonds stats skyrocketed after turning 35. But if you guys want to just talk about the numbers then thats fine with me. The numbers speak volumes to me.
700/500 .. Let me know when any other player comes close.
Exactly. That should be the end of this discussion. Your keep arguing about how should have HR and whatever. Guess what? Hitting- Bonds is better. More HR and this with Ray Durham(compared to Lou Gehrig) hitting behind him. Even if you want to give the SLIGHT edge to Ruth here, like it was pointed out earilier, it says ballplayer. So even if you give a slight victory to Ruth on hitting, Speed: No Comparison at all. 500 SB is an accomlishment for any player, ecpecially one with 700 HR. Defense: No COmparison at all. Bonds has won 8 Gold Gloves.(the most ever GG at OF is 12. Whoelse? Mays) Bonds is the complete package. 5 tool player. Ruth was just a big guy how hit HR. Again, no knock on Ruth, buts its not close.
But you are not taking in to consideration Ruth's pitching ability which in my mind at least makes up for the 500 SBs. Ruth didn't come up to the plate much at all in his first 4 seasons. His numbers would be far superior at the plate if he had. So those pitching numbers have to account for something. 500 SBs? So Bonds was faster than Ruth... You could pull guys off the street that could steal 500 bases over the course of 20 years. CAN'T pull guys off the street that would be able to pitch and get MLB hitters out.
You keep saying with Ray durham hitting behind him. He didn't have Ray hitting behind him his whole career. And Durham is a pretty good hitter when healthy. Also, around the time Durham was hitting behind him is around the time when his strikezone shrunk to nothing. I'm pretty sure Ruth didn't have that strikezone.
No, but his 'protection' has certainly led to less HR opportunities, especially as of late.
Year Batter PA UBB IBB AB/HR Next Batter 2001 Barry Bonds 664 143 34 6.52 Jeff Kent 2002 Barry Bonds 612 130 68 8.76 Jeff Kent/Benito Santiago 2003 Barry Bonds 550 87 61 8.67 Edgardo Alfonzo/Benito Santiago 2004 Barry Bonds 617 112 120 8.29 Edgardo Alfonzo/Pedro Feliz
Comparing players of the same era is difficult enough, but comparing players of different eras truly is an exercise in futility...albeit a fun one. I don't think it's necessary to come up with a conclusion one way or another. Ruth did things Bonds hasn't done, Bonds is doing things Ruth didn't do.
I do know that what Bonds did from 2001-2004 was the most impressive feat I've ever seen in sports. People who live outside of the Bay Area and didn't watch the Giants regularly at that time couldn't get an accurate feeling for what he was doing just from watching highlights. The man would literally get one, maybe two pitches to hit per game, and when he did, he drilled them. He was absolutely locked in. It was like watching a player on a ridiculous hot streat--like A Rod at the beginning of the season--only it lasted four years. Of his 555 BB in those four years, 284 were intentional, including 120 IBB in 2004. ONE HUNDRED TWENTY!!! On top of those 284 IBB, another 100 or so (at least) were the 'unintentional intentional' variety where he would walk on four straight pitches without seeing anything close to the strike-zone. Opposing pitchers and teams have never feared a hitter the way they feared Bonds.
TheRawDAWG wrote:Guys hitting behind Bonds during his career:
Bonilla- one of the more feared hitters during this time. Van Slyke- Good all round hitter Matt Williams - Probably breaks the homerun record in 1994 before Big Mac and Bonds Will Clark - Great all round hitter, perennial all star Jeff Kent - Best hitting second baseman of all time. Won an MVP and it wasn't because of his D. JT Snow - This is at a time where JT could actually drive the ball and was consistently around 25 dingers, 95RBIs and .300 BA Rich Aurilla - hit 37 HRs one year he hit behind bonds Reggie Sanders - Decent power speed guy in the lineup Ray Durham - Very good hitting 2nd bagger Ellis Burks - Had some very productive years in SF Moises Alou - Great hitter
It seems like you're just pulling some of this stuff out of nowhere. Many of those guys you named actually hit in front of Bonds most of the time, not behind him, and others simply weren't as good as you seem to remember them being. For instance, Snow hit 25 or more homers only once, and only came close to 25 to other times while only batting over .300 once in his career. In Aurilla's one good season, I believe (and somebody may be able to correct me) that he batted second most of the season.
Art Vandelay wrote:Comparing players of the same era is difficult enough, but comparing players of different eras truly is an exercise in futility...albeit a fun one. I don't think it's necessary to come up with a conclusion one way or another. Ruth did things Bonds hasn't done, Bonds is doing things Ruth didn't do.
I do know that what Bonds did from 2001-2004 was the most impressive feat I've ever seen in sports. People who live outside of the Bay Area and didn't watch the Giants regularly at that time couldn't get an accurate feeling for what he was doing just from watching highlights. The man would literally get one, maybe two pitches to hit per game, and when he did, he drilled them. He was absolutely locked in. It was like watching a player on a ridiculous hot streat--like A Rod at the beginning of the season--only it lasted four years. Of his 555 BB in those four years, 284 were intentional, including 120 IBB in 2004. ONE HUNDRED TWENTY!!! On top of those 284 IBB, another 100 or so (at least) were the 'unintentional intentional' variety where he would walk on four straight pitches without seeing anything close to the strike-zone. Opposing pitchers and teams have never feared a hitter the way they feared Bonds.
But what strike zone are we talking about here? The pitchers couldn't throw a pitch over the inside of the plate because it would hit bonds in the elbow pad. They couldn't pitch it above his middle thigh or it would be called a ball. They couldn't pitch it down the middle or the ball was gone. What choice did the pitchers have? NONE. The plate was cut in half anytime Bonds came up. Take a look at footage and tell me he's not leaning over the plate. If I were a pitcher I'd plunk Bonds everytime he came to the plate instead of wasting 4 pitches. You couldn't get thrown out of a game for throwing a strike could you?
And another thing, doesn't it tell you somethign if the HR hitter Bonds is going to pass and the commsioner of baseball probably aren't going to be at Bonds record breaking game? That right there shows we shouldn't even be having this conversation because of the lack of respect Bonds has from the players and the office of baseball. Bonds is getting what he wants...to be compared to the greatest of all time.
Also, Bonds last few years have been the worst of his career because he's breaking down. His protection doesn't matter as much now.
TheRawDAWG wrote:Guys hitting behind Bonds during his career:
Bonilla- one of the more feared hitters during this time. Van Slyke- Good all round hitter Matt Williams - Probably breaks the homerun record in 1994 before Big Mac and Bonds Will Clark - Great all round hitter, perennial all star Jeff Kent - Best hitting second baseman of all time. Won an MVP and it wasn't because of his D. JT Snow - This is at a time where JT could actually drive the ball and was consistently around 25 dingers, 95RBIs and .300 BA Rich Aurilla - hit 37 HRs one year he hit behind bonds Reggie Sanders - Decent power speed guy in the lineup Ray Durham - Very good hitting 2nd bagger Ellis Burks - Had some very productive years in SF Moises Alou - Great hitter
It seems like you're just pulling some of this stuff out of nowhere. Many of those guys you named actually hit in front of Bonds most of the time, not behind him, and others simply weren't as good as you seem to remember them being. For instance, Snow hit 25 or more homers only once, and only came close to 25 to other times while only batting over .300 once in his career. In Aurilla's one good season, I believe (and somebody may be able to correct me) that he batted second most of the season.
I'm just talking about years where Snow was in the line up with Bonds as one of the top SF bats. Sure he hit 25 homers once, but he hit 24 once too and was always CLOSE to .300, did you notice I said AROUND. I'm not talking a career here. And maybe just saying guys that hit behind Bonds wouldn't be entirely accurate. I was just naming guys that were in the lineup with Bonds through out his career. And it's a pretty decent list. Especially when you look at the numbers they put up during the time Bonds was hitting with them. And you can protect a player if you're hitting in front of them as well. Furthermore, in Bonds best seasons he had Kent hitting behind him or in front of him which is pretty good protection. And to start his career he had Bonilla hitting behind him. I was just showing Ray Durham isn't even close to the best player Bonds played with.
Also, I'm almost certain Aurilla was hitting behind bonds...but I may be mistaken.
Ruth put up his numbers in only 16 full years as a full time hitter.
Bonds had 22 years (21 if you don't count 2005).
Ruth had a 207 career OPS+
Bonds has a career 182 OPS+
No one since ruth had been as domiant (though WIlliams and bonds have come close). Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams.
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
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by TheRawDAWG » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:21 am 
