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Is this trade vetoable?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Vetoable?

Yes
5
28%
No
13
72%
 
Total votes : 18

Postby CBMGreatOne » Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:08 pm

Funny, he asks a simple question and he gets replies like:

Not even close and anyone that would veto that is an idiot.


If this got vetoed in any of my leagues, I would first find out who and why, and if it looked like something that may repeat itself in the future, I'd simply find new people to play with next year. An owner needs to have the right to run his team as he sees fit, especially in a keeper style league like this one. What a joke.


How about just answering the question instead of insulting the character of a hypothetical person who might not fully think about or understand the game like you do?

And yeah, it's not even close to vetoable. I'd be mad too, but it's just a question, no one is championing the "Veto that deal!" flag out to the battlefield.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:22 pm

CBMGreatOne wrote:Funny, he asks a simple question and he gets replies like:

Not even close and anyone that would veto that is an idiot.


If this got vetoed in any of my leagues, I would first find out who and why, and if it looked like something that may repeat itself in the future, I'd simply find new people to play with next year. An owner needs to have the right to run his team as he sees fit, especially in a keeper style league like this one. What a joke.


How about just answering the question instead of insulting the character of a hypothetical person who might not fully think about or understand the game like you do?

And yeah, it's not even close to vetoable. I'd be mad too, but it's just a question, no one is championing the "Veto that deal!" flag out to the battlefield.


There is a method to my madness but thanks for calling me out. ;-D

For that matter, his question was:

Is this trade vetoable?


I think that I answered the question. ;-)
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Postby RowdyRed » Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:03 pm

Four people have responded to the poll question with "yes" out of 14. That means, in a Yahoo Public league, this trade is almost vetoed. So my question really is, to the people saying yes, why is this trade vetoable?

I am not the original poster. I'm just curious why people think it could be vetoed.
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:56 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
CBMGreatOne wrote:Funny, he asks a simple question and he gets replies like:

Not even close and anyone that would veto that is an idiot.


If this got vetoed in any of my leagues, I would first find out who and why, and if it looked like something that may repeat itself in the future, I'd simply find new people to play with next year. An owner needs to have the right to run his team as he sees fit, especially in a keeper style league like this one. What a joke.


How about just answering the question instead of insulting the character of a hypothetical person who might not fully think about or understand the game like you do?

And yeah, it's not even close to vetoable. I'd be mad too, but it's just a question, no one is championing the "Veto that deal!" flag out to the battlefield.


There is a method to my madness but thanks for calling me out. ;-D

For that matter, his question was:

Is this trade vetoable?


I think that I answered the question. ;-)


Same to you and Turnabout is fair play...

http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=283624
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Postby Lofunzo » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:22 pm

CBMGreatOne wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
CBMGreatOne wrote:Funny, he asks a simple question and he gets replies like:

Not even close and anyone that would veto that is an idiot.


If this got vetoed in any of my leagues, I would first find out who and why, and if it looked like something that may repeat itself in the future, I'd simply find new people to play with next year. An owner needs to have the right to run his team as he sees fit, especially in a keeper style league like this one. What a joke.


How about just answering the question instead of insulting the character of a hypothetical person who might not fully think about or understand the game like you do?

And yeah, it's not even close to vetoable. I'd be mad too, but it's just a question, no one is championing the "Veto that deal!" flag out to the battlefield.


There is a method to my madness but thanks for calling me out. ;-D

For that matter, his question was:

Is this trade vetoable?


I think that I answered the question. ;-)


Same to you and Turnabout is fair play...

http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=283624


Please enlighten me as to how that is turnabout. While you're at it, please tell me what you're trying to accomplish here.
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Postby The Loveable Losers » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:19 pm

Let's give you guys the reasoning for the vetoes from the league to spur some more discussion:

Vetoer #1:
I think this is one of the biggest jokes trades ever in the history of the league. I don't care about your reasons about both your prospects Pence and Gallardo which are both "NOT" forsures in the future.

IMO this trade would be in favour for [Team A] even if there weren't any picks. Carlos Zambrano has never shown in the last 5 years that he puts up these numbers with a 5.24 ERA and a 1.49 WHIP. By the end of the year, Zambrano will have a sub 4 ERA with a 1.25 with a very good k/9.

On the other hand Vernon. Well he kind of sucks. Over the last 5 years, Vernon has only had 2 good seasons in 03 and 06 with an OPS over .900 in both of them. Vernon does not have the greatest EYES AS HE SWINGS at shit all the time. His OBP will probably end up below.330 with an average of .275.

By the beginging of the year Zambrano had more value then Wells and IMO he still has more value unless i have missed an injury in the last 3 hours. It is definatley a

VETO


Vetoer #2:
Yeah I didn't like this one either even when it was [name removed] involved looking to give up Bonderman plus a prospect pitcher because I feel that Wells is one of the most overrated fantasy hitters in the game today just look at his career he has a decent season and always follows it up with nothing and then last season was his breakout but I just think it was one of those fluke seasons...

Veto: A 4th round pick plus a career top 5 pitcher for a 4th or 5th keeper choice in Wells is too much IMO...


and

Yeah agree with you here I mean for a trade to be vetoed it must be because the players involved would hurt the balance of the league but in this case I just didn't like the idea of you not only giving up the historically better player but that your also giving up a pretty sizable pick upgrade to Team A as well...

I don't think it's a coincidence that once again Team A is getting the better of a deal I just think the guy is more patient then most and knows that if someone really wants a certain player from his team then he can just sit back and wait for that manager to finally break and give up too much... Before long if this keeps up then Team A is going to have the top players at each position on his team and he already has 3 of them Pujols, Reyes, and Utley...


Vetoer #3:
Wow, I don't really know what to say.

Seriously, there isn't really any justification in the world to trade one of the best and most dominant pitchers in the game for a mediocre fantasy OF (and yes...this is what Vernon Wells is, he's consistenly inconsistent). Vernon Wells is a player who at his best might be a top 15 OF, MIGHT. And Vernon is a guy who's rarely at his best. Of his 6 seasons at the major league level, only two of them were very good, the other 4 (including this year) were only respectable, and some of them were quite poor. He's the definition of an inconsistent performer. Vernon Wells is very much a fringe keeper, IMO, and for whatever reason, his value seems to have been very inflated almost everywhere in the baseball world. People used to call the guy one of the most underrated players in the baseball, but by fantasy standards, he's most certainly an overrated one.

And now we move onto Carlos Zambrano, a 26 year old pitcher (he turned 26 today actually) in his prime. He's been one of the most dominant pitchers in the game for the last 5 years, and with his Ks, has found his way into atleast the top 10 in his position, if not the top 5 over that time. He has not regressed at all (I mean he's 26, he's going to only improve from here likely, but I'm sure Team A knew this). In all likelyhood, he will finish with numbers probably a little inflated from his poor start, but they will still look very, very good nonetheless. Carlos is an ace on any staff, and a definite keeper in any league, on any team. Citing that a prospect (and what's funny is Team B you're the guy that was so critical about overvalueing prospects in trades, boy I love pointing out hypocrites) is the reason why you're trading away one of the best pitchers in the game is a terrible, terrible reason. Prospects are definitely not for sure keepers by any stretch of the imagination and nobody should assume as much, we should have learned as much over the last few seasons.

No, this trade wouldn't be fair even without the picks (I can't believe Team A is actually gaining 9 rounds in this :o). It wouldn't even be close.


and

Yeah...I think LL adding another one of the best pitchers in the league for a far lesser player, including a huge pick upgrade, is more than a little bit unfair, and might upset the balence of the league, don't you?


and

I actually can't believe he had the nerve to post something this bad, but whatever. I'm not sure how he got Squeezy to actually give him a 9 round upgrade here, but Squeezy must just hate Zambrano or something.


and

I'm not sure why so many people think Vernon Wells is that good? ??? I mean when I'm a Jays fan, and I've always had this opinion about a player, there has to be something a bit wrong with him. He's a decent OF that you can expect to hit about 25-30 HR a year with a .270-.280 AVG every year. It's alright, but it's nothing that special AT all.


Vetoer #4:

I'll easily change my vote after picks are more evened out. Fattie :-* [Zambrano] is overated as well. Picks have to be valued more in this league;especially in comparible type player trade. Picks constitute more then 50% of our lineups every year.


Vetoer #5:

If you took out the picks id allow, but i gotta agree with some of these guys. Even though Zambrano's retrun to dominance is not for sure like many are saying, there is no reason to believe that hell keep up this slump after 5 years of dominance either. Personally i think V Wells is terrible, and that hes hit his ceiling. .275-25 hr hitters can be found on the waiver wire or the back end of the draft nowadays and its just not worth giving up a potential top 5 sp for that. [my emphasis]


Vetoer #6 (yes, there were 6 vetoes and 1 allow out of the 7 voters 8-o ):

I'm gonna have to veto as well - Team B, voting as a whole is based on opinion. You can twist the facts any way you want to make the deal look anyway you want, that's the way it goes, it's just marketing. Wells is a very inconsistent player, and though he does have these good years, they are offset by a mediocre ones. Zambrano is a good pitcher, but also a risk, yes. But he has a higher ceiling than Wells, so I would put their value at this point in time abotu even, with a slight edge to Zambrano. I understand your reasoning, thinking that hitting is more valuable, so adding that to Wells' value, that would put them on an equal level in my mind. It's the picks that skew this deal - if any upgrade is involved, I'd still probably veto. Getting the better player and the picks, when in reality the lesser player does not have the capability to reach the level of the better one, is terribly lopsided.

PS keep in mind I'm not even thinking about league balance here, as I don't think that Zambrano is as good as the absolute top shelf pitchers. I also have no reason to consider this, as I'm in last place with about as much hope of winning anything as the Cubs do of winnin the world series.


Allow #1 (and only):

for what it's worth, I would have allowed this deal... I just think it should be up to us to do with our players what we want. We all had a chance to put offers in for Zambrano, so hats off to Team A for making a great deal... I'd only veto if I thought collusion was involved or if someone was suspisously dumping off their players for way less than their value. If a team leaving the league came in and made a trade like this one, then I would probably throw out a veto... but both LL and Squeezy have been around long enough, don't have any immediate plans of leaving, and therefore should be able to value players the way they see fit.

If the Giants were allowed to trade Liriano, Nathan and Bonser, for AJ Pierzinski, surely we should let Team B trade Zambrano and a pick for Wells... And this trade isn't nearly as bad...
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:22 pm

Please enlighten me as to how that is turnabout. While you're at it, please tell me what you're trying to accomplish here.


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Postby The Loveable Losers » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:27 pm

And for the record, Team A is my team. I'm absolutely disgusted. Honestly I don't view Zambrano in the same light that the vetoers view him. I view him as 40% likely to be an ace and 60% likely to have a complete collapse. THAT is why I insisted on the large pick upgrade. And their opinions on Vernon Wells...I just don't know what to say there.

2005: Overall #71, OF#23
2006: Overall #29, OF#10

Career 162 game averages: .286/27/95/98/11

Yep...that's waiver wire trash there. ;-7

Also for the record, Team B is probably more pissed about the deal being vetoed than I am. While I was ambivalent here due to my lack of trust in Zambrano and the fact that I'm competing THIS year (making me hesitant to make a deal where most of the value was in picks NEXT year) he's just trying to get something, ANYTHING out of Carlos Zambrano. Team B does not want Zambrano on his roster at ALL and this deal gave him a solid keeper fantasy outfielder for a player he simply wants to get off of his roster. He's absolutely livid and has taken down his trading block on the grounds that there's not much point in trying to trade if he can't make the deals he wants to make without having the league tell him he's not allowed because he's getting ripped off. In other words, in the face of 6 vetoes and 1 allow...in the face of person after person telling him why he shouldn't do this deal...he STILL wanted to take the deal. And the league simply told him no.
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:30 pm

Very interesting. These guys obviously take their league very seriously and they've reached a consensus. There was an additional wrinkle to the deal other than the straight up player for player that seems to have swayed a lot of people who might have otherwise been on the fence which was the draft round swap. What is it exactly?

Edit: reread. Still hard to know exactly what the pragmatic value of that pick swap means without being entrenched in that league.

I guess to me the deciding factor would be the level of activity of the manager giving up Zambrano. Is he like those of us here that pour blood sweat and tears into our teams or is he just some guy casually hitting the accept button out of indifference to the game?

I can't say for sure what I'd do, but if I were you I'd probably just let the matter lie or try to work a more favorable draft pick swap.

Edit: (because I only just read your last post). Well, that swings my vote in favor of an approval, obviously, in that his intent is sincere. Unfortunately though, you guys had a voting system in place and that's the system you have to abide by. If you want to play in a league with other people next year you always have that option.

Maybe see if they'll let you flip them straight up for each other without the draft picks? You're unfortunately, to some extent, at the mercy of the majority. Maybe link them to this thread and see what they think. That's the best advice I can give you.
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Postby pokerplaya » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:42 pm

I don't know if anyone else sees what I see - but what I see is that LL has a dominant team (as evidenced by vetoer number 2 complaining that he is stacked in several positions) and they are using this as a tactic to deflect him from getting any stronger.

Seems pretty bush league to me. I'd be furious if I was either manager here... :-t
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