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Do the Cardinals need a complete makeover?

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Do the Cardinals need a complete makeover?

Postby sportsaddict » Wed May 30, 2007 2:46 am

It's 1:32 AM central time, and I can't go to sleep. Randomly, I'm thinking about how bad the Cardinals are and why they suck so much. I would have posted this in the Cards team thread but nobody looks at those things so it would be pointless.

So, anyway, I've gotten thinking, and I think the St. Louis Cardinals need to be completely redone. I absolutely think Jocketty is the man for the job and anyone who wants him to be gone is crazy. I think La Russa should stay as well, I don't see any reason for him to leave after this year. Here's the deal: the offense is aging and is just pathetic outside of Pujols and Duncan. Eckstein SHOULD NOT be resigned after this season, he's go no speed, no pop, no nothing... he's a fan favorite but he can't steal and he doesn't draw walks, he's getting up there in age too. We need someone at the top of the order who can make things happen, but the only problem is I don't know who would replace Eckstein.

Scott Rolen is washed up. I hate to say it, but he just doesn't look the same. He has no power, his shoulder seems to still be bothering him, and he's getting older. His defense is as good as ever, though, but his bat is not there and isn't really showing any signs of coming back.

Edmonds still has a little left but he's for the most part finished. He's got some pop left in his bat, but his time has come. I hate to think we have him under contract for next season, he's not the same defensively and he's breaking down. It's sad to see him play like this but he's not the same as he once was either.

The outfield is a problem, in right field especially. Juan Encarnacion is not the answer. The problem is he just does nothing. He is good for .270/20/75. That's not bad, but we need someone who can actually protect Pujols and make people afraid to pitch around him, and with Rolen and Edmonds not doing anything, we just have nothing.

We get no production at all from 2b, but if we are getting good defense I can live with not having much offense from that position. Still, it would be nice to actually have a guy that can do something at that position and not just be an easy out.

Molina is a bright spot at catcher. His offense is improving and his defense is possibly the best in the National League. Nothing wrong here.

The biggest problem is we have no infield prospects. I would be in favor of trading Rolen this season if we get way out of the race, and he's been rumored in a lot of deals. I'd be in favor of trading anyone but Pujols and Duncan and Molina, but I'm not a GM so I don't know what's a possibility right now.

On to the pitching. It's not in as bad of shape as a lot of people think. For the future, we've got Carp and Wainwright, who I think will make a spectacular duo. Carpenter is going to be fine once he gets healthy, and Wainwright will sort out his problems- he's pitched well in May besides one ugly start. Braden Looper has been good but I wonder how good a starter he can really be, I think he can be a good bottom end starter for us in the future. Reyes I think will be back up and perfectly fine, making a good 3rd starter for the Cards in the future. Then, hopefully Wells or someone will pan out and we can get some production from the 5th starter. A rotation of Carpenter, Wainwright, Reyes, Looper, and Wells (?) would be fine by me- Wainwright and Reyes will improve tremendously, I have no doubt about that, a lot of people were worried about them for this year and rightfully so, but for the future, I am content with them.

The bullpen is solid as well. Izzy is rock solid as our closer, and we've been able to patch together our bullpen with guys like Franklin, Johnson, etc. For the future we look fine in that department, not much to say there.

I think the Cardinals biggest glaring hole now is the offense. Edmonds and Rolen are declining big time, Encarnacion doesn't really provide all that much, Eckstein is aging and really isn't doing much, there's nothing at 2b... I worry about what will happen there. Our outfield actually seems to be in ok hands in center, as Rasmus is really coming along well at Double A...

That was a very long post, thank you to those who are still reading. I just dont know what to do with the Cardinals, we look awful this season. I hope we can get better for the future, I'd like to see the Cards go with a youth movement and build around Pujols, Duncan, and Molina.
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Postby brandnew » Wed May 30, 2007 3:13 am

The Cards' main problem is a lack of impact bats in the minor other than Rasmus (who is a stud)... their system is pretty thin. You need a bunch of good young players and money to be an elite team. Cards only have one of the two... pitching looks good though.

Holes at 2B, SS, 3B are really tough to just fill up.
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Postby Morrison8312 » Wed May 30, 2007 3:48 am

It's definitely been a tough season without Carp. He would obviously make enough of a difference to be close to .500 (and thats what it takes to be in the Central race). It'll be interesting to see when they bring Rasmus up. I realize he's only 20 (21 on August 11) but he's really crushing the ball and would also steal some bases for them too.

Do you see them making a splash in the offseason for maybe Andruw Jones or Torii Hunter? Should be interesting.
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Postby jealousblues » Wed May 30, 2007 6:21 am

the pitching will be fine,

we should have Carp, Mulder, Waino, (maybe) Reyes, and FA next year

but the hitting stinks.
Edmonds is just done, Rolen looks close behind.
Juan is...well Juan. He is almost a bench guy.

Miles is better than Kennedy.

What stinks is we have Rolen for severial years, Juan and Edmonds for one more and Kennedy for two more...
If they all continue to suck we are sunk.

Yadi is looking better at the plate...I just wish he wasnt so slow.

Resigning Eck would be a mistake.

I say we build around


thats not terrible.
the pitching could be bad but Reyes and Waino could become world beaters...and for cheap. Carp is good for it, and Mulder should be at least solid.
if we got one more solid (or better starter) that would be a rotation I would believe in.

We should try hard to get Rolen (maybe), Edmonds, Eck, Juan and Izzy off the payroll.
That would be a chunk of money.

the only problem would be Izzy and Edmonds for me because they have been so loyal.


as it is now this team has no speed and no power.
Just a bunch of singles hitters and Albert and Chris.
Last edited by jealousblues on Wed May 30, 2007 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jealousblues » Wed May 30, 2007 6:23 am

oh and we need to start adding payroll.
while our payroll has gone up every year...its not keeping up with the competition. I think we have the third highest payroll in the division.
I think just 4-5 years ago we were top 5 in baseball...or close to it.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Wed May 30, 2007 10:45 am

Edmonds is about done. His defense isn't the same and his bat is much slower. I actually have more hope that Rolen can put it together. He isn't going to hit for big power but that doesn't mean he can't be a productive hitter. Plus his defense is still top notch. Duncan is proving that he isn't a fluke. He defense has improved but still needs work. Eckstein and Kennedy are pretty much the same guy. Nothing special but not bad. Besides no one expected them to drive this offense. Molina is great on defense and his bat is getting better.

They need to spend on a big offensive RF and hope Rasmus can replace Edmonds soon. Not resigning Eckstein and upgrading SS would be a plus.

I actually don't think the pitching will be that bad. Carp, Mulder, Wainright and Reyes should be around for a few years. Izzy's option should be picked up and after that who knows. Jocketty has always done a great job make something out of nothing with the bullpen.

Any way you slice it the Cardinals for the next few years are dependant on Pujols and Carpenter's health and success.
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Postby 05worldserieschamps » Wed May 30, 2007 11:31 am

I dont think they need a makeover at all. Look at the last 3 seasons. Went to the World Series in 2004 and got beat by the Red Sox.(But '04 was the BoSox year. The NL All Stars couldn't have beat them then) In 2005, they lost in Game 6 to the Astros of the NLCS, and we all know in 2005, they won the World Series over heavily favored Detriot Tigers. This is NOT the time forr a total makeover.

Look at what they have done thus far. (much like my team, the ChiSox, you have to find the optimism in the situation) They are 20-29 and only 7.5 games back of first place. Now think about whats happened to them this year.

1. No Chris Carpenter.
2. Pretty much No Albert Pujols due to his massive slump.
3. And really, whole offense has been pretty consistently bad.

Now, Molina and Pujols are finally starting to hit, and can maybe get some Run Support for 0-8 Anthony Reyes. If the Cards can stay afloat, say....5-7 games back until Carpenter gets back, and they may need to get ONE more pitcher in a Trade or something, they will be looking good. Izzy can close games, and their offense is still really, really good. If they can get that rotation going like they should with Carp, the Cards will be alright.

PS- Remember the Astros of 2005.
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Re: Do the Cardinals need a complete makeover?

Postby j_d_mcnugent » Wed May 30, 2007 11:33 am

unfortunately, i dont think the cards can pull off a makeover. there are few tradeable commodities. edmonds, rolen, and encar probably arent going to fetch much of anything in return. in fact, the cards would likely have to send out some cash just to get rid of them. i got a feeling looper wont look so hot come the trade deadline. izzy seems to be the one real trade asset the cards have. could they get enough in return (assuming he waives his NTC) to make it worthwhile? i suppose the rest of the bullpen could be auctioned off--franklin and TJ might get something good in return. i havent spent much time pondering whether the cards should rebuild because i'm not so sure they could rebuild...not in any short amount of time. what they need is their high priced players to start earning their money.
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Postby talldarkandnerdy » Wed May 30, 2007 1:07 pm

I completely agree with no re-signing Eckstein. He doesn't add much to the team. I like his hustle and how hard he tries but heart does not equal production. The middle infield has just been a black hole for this team with no power and no speed. If Kennedy was performing along his normal lines, he would be a decent 2B option to fill in the 7th or 8th hole, but he has been underperforming along with everyone else.

The $28 million this year between Edmonds, Rolen and Encarnacion has pretty much been wasted. I can't believe the Cardinals would give Edmonds a $19 million, 2 year deal after his production has dropped off the last couple of years. Rolen making $12 million/yr through 2010 is something the Cardinals can't afford to do. I've always liked Rolen, but I think they need to move him more than anyone. Even if he was 100%, his offensive production would not be worth what they are paying him. And Encarnacion has never hit 20 HRs in a season. He seems lazy at times as well. It would be great if they could move him as well. The problem is, they'd most likely have to cover part of the contracts for each of these players, so in the end it may not be worth it or clear up enough room to get a better player to replace them.

I don't really have any faith in Reyes in the rotation. Carpenter and Wainwright will be good for years to come, and I hope Mulder can earn his pay but I'm not keeping my fingers crossed. The Cards will probably not re-sign Wells, and I think Looper will fade as the year goes on. They will probably have to fill two holes in their rotation next year, with Carp, Adam and Mulder being their 1-3 starters. It isn't a horrible situation to be in, though.

Izzy has been alright this year. I wouldn't be surprised if they picked up his option next year. He would be making close to 10% of payroll, but after buying out his contract for $1.25M, I think the Cardinals would be hard pressed to find a closer as good as Izzy for $6.75M or less (Izzy is due $8M next year if they pick up his contract).

I think for the Cardinals to have a chance at building for the future, Rolen and maybe Encarnacion have to perform well enough to be traded. I don't see them trading off Edmonds, as they will most likely look for him to fill CF until Rasmus is ready in a couple years. Plus they have loyalty to him. If they could move Rolen if/when he becomes more productive, then maybe they can move him for a prospect or two. I've heard the Dodgers have interest in Rolen, and personally I think it would be cool if the Cards could land LaRoche and Billingsley for Rolen, but I seriously doubt the Dodgers would do that.
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Postby jealousblues » Wed May 30, 2007 2:40 pm

the way I look at it is we need
Carp to be Carp
Mulder to be above average and solid.
Wainwright needs to become a plus pitcher
then we have a FA guy
and then Reyes as the 5 for now. Maybe he pans out or not, but he should at least be decent and be cheap.

that rotation should free up some money for some FA's

If Rolen could just hit .300 and have a lot of doubles or something he would still be an asset (if not still overpayed) but this pop up stuff has got to stop.

p.s. its too bad Molina hurt his wrist after getting hot
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