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Most Overrated Players of All-Time

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Postby noseeum » Wed May 23, 2007 12:55 am

Havok1517 wrote:Reese
Rizzuto
Maz
OSmith

are overrated and should not be in the HOF imo.


Those saying Ozzie Smith is overrated. How? Are you saying he wasn't the best defensive short stop ever? Or are you saying defense doesn't matter, and since his offense was not that great, he's overrated?

I don't get it. By any measure, Smith is far and away the best defensive short stop ever. No one ever really claims he's much of an offensive player, so how is he overrated?
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Postby Havok1517 » Wed May 23, 2007 1:10 am

noseeum wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:Reese
Rizzuto
Maz
OSmith

are overrated and should not be in the HOF imo.


Those saying Ozzie Smith is overrated. How? Are you saying he wasn't the best defensive short stop ever? Or are you saying defense doesn't matter, and since his offense was not that great, he's overrated?

I don't get it. By any measure, Smith is far and away the best defensive short stop ever. No one ever really claims he's much of an offensive player, so how is he overrated?


Well, imo, Vizquel is the better defensive shortstop ever. So, there goes that. I think that Ozzie's offensive shortcomings make him less than a player than say a Barry Larkin.
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Postby kaiser » Wed May 23, 2007 8:25 am

I'd like to add my encouragement to that of noseeum. If you enjoy baseball enough that you spend time reading this board, and you haven't read Bill James yet, you are doing yourself a disservice. Trust me- you'll love baseball even more after reading Bill James. He brings to light an entirely new paradigm for baseball.
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Postby noseeum » Wed May 23, 2007 8:42 am

Havok1517 wrote:
noseeum wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:Reese
Rizzuto
Maz
OSmith

are overrated and should not be in the HOF imo.


Those saying Ozzie Smith is overrated. How? Are you saying he wasn't the best defensive short stop ever? Or are you saying defense doesn't matter, and since his offense was not that great, he's overrated?

I don't get it. By any measure, Smith is far and away the best defensive short stop ever. No one ever really claims he's much of an offensive player, so how is he overrated?


Well, imo, Vizquel is the better defensive shortstop ever. So, there goes that. I think that Ozzie's offensive shortcomings make him less than a player than say a Barry Larkin.


Well your opinion is wrong, but thanks for sharing. Vizquel has a great glove, but his range pales in comparison to Smith. As in it's not even close. As in no one's ever come close to Smith's range. As in it was like he was playing some level of defense no one thought possible. He had over 500 more assists over his career than the average shortstop would have had. That is insane.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Wed May 23, 2007 9:04 am

kaiser wrote:I'd like to add my encouragement to that of noseeum. If you enjoy baseball enough that you spend time reading this board, and you haven't read Bill James yet, you are doing yourself a disservice. Trust me- you'll love baseball even more after reading Bill James. He brings to light an entirely new paradigm for baseball.


+1!! This is a very good idea, the Bill James HOF book explores all of this in great depth and is a great read.
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Postby Tavish » Wed May 23, 2007 9:40 am

noseeum wrote:The only thing James has a mancrush on is stats. He doesn't really have "opinions" about players, in his view. He pretty much views them as facts. You might say he has opinions on which stats are important to winning a game or creating runs, and you might disagree with them, but all of his ratings stem from statistical analysis of what he feels is most important to win a baseball game.


That isn't exactly true. Bill James absolutely adds a subjective factor into his views on players. There isn't anything wrong with that as long as people realize he doesn't make his rankings based 100% on statistics. There are players he loves that get moved up in rankings despite the lesser stats (Morgan and Biggio) and players he dislikes are constantly pushed further down (Hornsby, Cobb, Joe Jackson).
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Postby noseeum » Wed May 23, 2007 10:41 pm

Tavish wrote:
noseeum wrote:The only thing James has a mancrush on is stats. He doesn't really have "opinions" about players, in his view. He pretty much views them as facts. You might say he has opinions on which stats are important to winning a game or creating runs, and you might disagree with them, but all of his ratings stem from statistical analysis of what he feels is most important to win a baseball game.


That isn't exactly true. Bill James absolutely adds a subjective factor into his views on players. There isn't anything wrong with that as long as people realize he doesn't make his rankings based 100% on statistics. There are players he loves that get moved up in rankings despite the lesser stats (Morgan and Biggio) and players he dislikes are constantly pushed further down (Hornsby, Cobb, Joe Jackson).


You're right, but that's certainly the smallest part of his evaluations. Much smaller than is typical. The stats mancrush is certainly true! It's more like "I hate subjective evals, but I can't help using it a tiny bit."
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Postby sportsaddict » Wed May 23, 2007 11:06 pm

Wow, people saying Ozzie Smith doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame are completely out of line. Has fantasy seriously gotten that ingrained in your head that all you care about are batting averages and on base percentages and slugging percentage and all that stuff? I'm as big a fan of fantasy baseball there is, but to call Ozzie Smith "overrated" because his offense was limited is ridiculous. He's the greatest defensive shortstop ever. Just because he's not flashy with the bat doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF.
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Postby noseeum » Wed May 23, 2007 11:10 pm

sportsaddict wrote:Wow, people saying Ozzie Smith doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame are completely out of line. Has fantasy seriously gotten that ingrained in your head that all you care about are batting averages and on base percentages and slugging percentage and all that stuff? I'm as big a fan of fantasy baseball there is, but to call Ozzie Smith "overrated" because his offense was limited is ridiculous. He's the greatest defensive shortstop ever. Just because he's not flashy with the bat doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF.


Translation: I love the Cardinals. :-D

Just kidding. I didn't even notice that Havok1517 said he shouldn't be in the hall. That's insane. Havok, get back here and apologize!
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu May 24, 2007 12:18 am

Havok1517 wrote:Well, imo, Vizquel is the better defensive shortstop ever. So, there goes that. I think that Ozzie's offensive shortcomings make him less than a player than say a Barry Larkin.


I did a thread a few years back (Ozzie versus Omar). Omar wasn't even close to Ozzie with glove. Every defensive metric shows this.

Omar could be the most overrated player in the last 10 years.

As far as the original all-time list, not bad. Piazza, Koufax don't belong.

Ryan is my most overrated player ever, with Reggie up there.

AJones is very overrated. A career .344 oba is terrible for a supposed stud. His 5.93 career rc/27 isn't star stuff.
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