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Most Overrated Players of All-Time

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Postby Big Pimpin » Tue May 22, 2007 5:06 pm

My vote is for the 2007 New York Yankees. O:-)
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Postby rainman23 » Tue May 22, 2007 5:07 pm

noseeum wrote:
acsguitar wrote:Why's mattingly overrated he's not ever mentioned for the hall with any seriousness


I think it's more about his peak four years. They were great, but were they as great as you remember? The year he hit .352 he had a .394 OBP. He had a great run for sure, but it wasn't like a Pujols run or anything. This coming from a Yankee fan, BTW.


This isn't just about people's memories. During those years Mattingly was routinely referred to as the best player in the game. And nobody was talking a lot about OBP in those years, either. I'm not sure it's fair to apply today's standards to players of other eras. It wasn't like Mattingly was an undisciplined hitter -- but in those days when you were a number 3 hitter you were encouraged to swing the bat. Mattingly put up numbers for a few years that became routine in the 90's and beyond, but were anything but in the early/mid 80's.

Yeah, that's where the 23 in my name comes from...
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Postby abrage22 » Tue May 22, 2007 5:08 pm

Doughhead wrote:I would want Jeter as the starting SS on my overrated team.


Definetly! ;-7
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Postby bigh0rt » Tue May 22, 2007 5:30 pm

rainman23 wrote:
noseeum wrote:
acsguitar wrote:Why's mattingly overrated he's not ever mentioned for the hall with any seriousness


I think it's more about his peak four years. They were great, but were they as great as you remember? The year he hit .352 he had a .394 OBP. He had a great run for sure, but it wasn't like a Pujols run or anything. This coming from a Yankee fan, BTW.


This isn't just about people's memories. During those years Mattingly was routinely referred to as the best player in the game. And nobody was talking a lot about OBP in those years, either. I'm not sure it's fair to apply today's standards to players of other eras. It wasn't like Mattingly was an undisciplined hitter -- but in those days when you were a number 3 hitter you were encouraged to swing the bat. Mattingly put up numbers for a few years that became routine in the 90's and beyond, but were anything but in the early/mid 80's.

Yeah, that's where the 23 in my name comes from...


Do you live in New York?
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Postby schmidty » Tue May 22, 2007 6:19 pm

Tavish wrote:3B - Brooks Robinson (Schmidt isn't far behind)


OK, I can buy the knock on Robinson being that for a good stretch of his career he was a below-average hitter, and that doesn't quite outweigh his defense (at least as far as considering him among the all-time greats).

But I haven't heard the anti-Schmidt argument before. What possible logical argument can you have for Schmidt being overrated? By every measurable method, one of the most dominant hitters of his time, with a long peak (1974-1987). One of the best defensive 3B of his time. Led a perennial loser team repeatedly to the playoffs and their first (and only) championship. Is this just another Philly hate thing? Did he snub you for an autograph when you were a kid or something?
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Postby noseeum » Tue May 22, 2007 7:15 pm

schmidty wrote:
Tavish wrote:3B - Brooks Robinson (Schmidt isn't far behind)


OK, I can buy the knock on Robinson being that for a good stretch of his career he was a below-average hitter, and that doesn't quite outweigh his defense (at least as far as considering him among the all-time greats).

But I haven't heard the anti-Schmidt argument before. What possible logical argument can you have for Schmidt being overrated? By every measurable method, one of the most dominant hitters of his time, with a long peak (1974-1987). One of the best defensive 3B of his time. Led a perennial loser team repeatedly to the playoffs and their first (and only) championship. Is this just another Philly hate thing? Did he snub you for an autograph when you were a kid or something?


The funny thing about third base is that people tend to thing of third base as an offensive position. Yet when you look back, there are so few good offensive third basemen. There are so few 3bs in the HOF in fact. Brooks Robinson is definitely top 10, and it's due to his glove, but it's also due to the fact there are so few good 3bs throughout history.

Add this color to any review of Schmidt, and any talk about him being overrated is bunk. The guy is a complete stud. Brett is second to Schmidt, but Schmidt is clearly the best 3B ever.
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Postby SteveJeltzPhanClub » Tue May 22, 2007 7:17 pm

First, I agree that it's ridiculous to bring up Mike Schmidt's name on a list of overated players. Guy hit 548 HRs in a mostly deadball era, was constantly the best fielding 3B in the NL, and led the Phils to their only world championship. If anything, the guy is underated.

Anyway, my list:

C Rick Ferrell (he caught for a long time for bad teams- thats about it as far a i can tell)
1B George Sisler (Bill James has plenty opinions on how overated this guys was- all seem valid to me)
2B Red Schoendienst (He is in as a player, but did he get in because he was a good guy- the stats don't say HOF to me)
3B George Kell
SS Phil Rizzuto (guys has very favorable comps to Jose friggin Offerman)
OF Enos Slaughter
OF Kirby Puckett (nice player + shortened career = HOFer??)
OF Lloyd Waner (very undeserving HOF- the lesser talented Waner brother who might have gotten in to the Hall on his brother's coattails)
DH Kirk Gibson (one at bat= a lifetime of being overated)
SP Nolan Ryan (sorry, but have to agree with others here)
SP Don Sutton (long career- no 20 game win season- highest Cy finish was 4th)
SP Daffy Dean (another less famous brother story)
SP Cy Young (only because the award would have been more appropriately named the Christy Mathewson or the Walter Johnson)
SP Todd Van Poppel (at one point he was very overated :-) )
RP Bruce Sutter (how this guy got into the Hall before Gossage, Smith, and Quisenberry has got to be a crime)
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Postby bigh0rt » Tue May 22, 2007 7:20 pm

noseeum wrote:
schmidty wrote:
Tavish wrote:3B - Brooks Robinson (Schmidt isn't far behind)


OK, I can buy the knock on Robinson being that for a good stretch of his career he was a below-average hitter, and that doesn't quite outweigh his defense (at least as far as considering him among the all-time greats).

But I haven't heard the anti-Schmidt argument before. What possible logical argument can you have for Schmidt being overrated? By every measurable method, one of the most dominant hitters of his time, with a long peak (1974-1987). One of the best defensive 3B of his time. Led a perennial loser team repeatedly to the playoffs and their first (and only) championship. Is this just another Philly hate thing? Did he snub you for an autograph when you were a kid or something?


The funny thing about third base is that people tend to thing of third base as an offensive position. Yet when you look back, there are so few good offensive third basemen. There are so few 3bs in the HOF in fact. Brooks Robinson is definitely top 10, and it's due to his glove, but it's also due to the fact there are so few good 3bs throughout history.

Add this color to any review of Schmidt, and any talk about him being overrated is bunk. The guy is a complete stud. Brett is second to Schmidt, but Schmidt is clearly the best 3B ever.


Third Base is so shallow historically, that Robin Ventura nearly cracked my All-Time Top 10. :*)
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Postby noseeum » Tue May 22, 2007 7:47 pm

jnormy wrote:
noseeum wrote: If you compare Craig Biggio very carefully to Ken Griffey, Jr. in almost any season, you will find that Biggio has contributed more to his team than Griffey has. Let's do 1998 as a starting point...in 1998 Ken Griffey outhomered Biggio 56 to 20, which was a huge thing, 36 homers. Biggio's advantages were...well, everything else." - Bill James, The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract


OK, all that does is prove James has a man crush on Biggio and as a result isn't able to make a fair assessment. "Everything else" huh? Like triples? KGJ 3, Biggio 2. How about RBI? KGJ 146, Biggio 88! Walks, KGJ 76 to 64. Slugging? KGJ .611 to .503. OPS? KGJ .977 to .906. Total bases? KGJ 387 to 325. Even runs, which you would think Biggio would have won going away, was close: 123 for Biggio, 120 for KGJ.

So much for James's credibility when talking about his boy Biggio... :-t


The only thing James has a mancrush on is stats. He doesn't really have "opinions" about players, in his view. He pretty much views them as facts. You might say he has opinions on which stats are important to winning a game or creating runs, and you might disagree with them, but all of his ratings stem from statistical analysis of what he feels is most important to win a baseball game. I'm not saying he's right about Biggio, yet. I'm just stating his evaluation is most certainly not based on a mancrush with Biggio, but rather on a mancrush with Win Shares. If you accept Win Shares as an accurate representation of a player's value, than Biggio was a better player than Griffey by over 40 win shares for the decade, which is huge.

Here's detail from the rest of that essay, so you decide whether you agree or not:
"Biggio's key advantages were 18 doubles (51-33) and 49 singles (137-88). How do you balance those things? Pete Palmer in The Hidden Game of Baseball pegged the value of a home run at 1.4 runs, a double at .8 runs, a single at .46, numbers which are probably as good as any other. That appraises Griffey's advantage at 50.4 runs... and Biggio's advantages at 37 runs, give or take a tenth... Griffey is still 13 and a half runs ahead, but we're just getting started."
[he goes through a bunch more stuff here, but I'll summarize]
-Biggio had 141 runs created vs. Griffey's 135 runs created
-Biggio did this in the NL, where avg runs per game was 4.6 vs. 5.01 for AL.
-Griffey played in a better hitter's park, given a PRI from STATS of .97 vs. .90 for the Astrodome.
-All told, Biggio gets 35 Win Shares while Griffey gets 29.
-This is just for that one year, and then he goes through all the other years of the decade, where Griffey had more win shares in only one season.

Then he ends it with this:
"Look, I'm not knocking Ken Griffey. Ken Griffey Jr. is a great player. Craig Biggio is better. The fact that nobody seems to realize this... well, that's not my problem. I'm not going to rate players by how many Nike commercials they do."

LOL. Agree or disagree, the guy calls 'em like he sees 'em.
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Postby JMB05 » Tue May 22, 2007 8:13 pm

As far as contracts go, my vote is for Ron Gant.

If I remember correctly Sports Illustrated voted him "Most Over Payed Player," like three years in a row in the 90's.

He probably won't win this argument but he was always my favorite player, just because he got payed so much to suck.

And please leave the "he was awesome with atlanta, but after he broke his leg...." crap at the door.
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