Koufax and Ryan? I can understand a bit of criticism about either, especially about Ryan's control issues. But I don't think it's possible to overrate a first-ballot Hall of Famer, even if they do lead the second-place in career walks by almost a thousand.
bigh0rt wrote:I'd probably say Carlton Fisk over Piazza, Craig Biggio over Steve Sax, and Frank Baker over Graig Nettles. I'm also not sure about Blomberg as the most overrated DH as all I know about him is that he was a Yankee and the first ever DH, but beyond that, I hear nothing about the guy ever, so I'm not sure how overrated he could be...
Why do you consider Baker and Biggio to be overrated?
I just don't think Biggio's ever been all that great a player. He has some nice milestone numbers, but, anybody who plays for over 20 years is bound to compile some of them. I've seen the guy ranked as high as the 35th Best Player of All-Time when I'd have trouble calling him the 135th Best Player of All-Time. Sure, a player must sustain a certain level of play to have the longevity that Biggio has, but I just don't think he's even all that impressive compared to some of his contemporaries, never mind all-time. As for Baker, he did look good compared to his contemporaries, but I hear his name lumped in together with Brett, Schmidt, Boggs, and Mathews and I just don't think he belongs there.
SignGuy wrote:I have no idea how Piazza is most overrated. He was flat out tremendous at the plate. His career stats at Catcher are gaudy.
Wasn't Piazza pretty lousy defensively, though? Does he call a good game behind the plate?
Piazza's difficulties throwing runners out are well-documented, and he's taken plenty of criticism from writers and fans alike for those failures. So I don't think that enters into an "overrated" discussion, 'cause it's widely acknowledged that he has those flaws. Everyone knows that he hangs his hat on the fact that he's among the best (if not THE best) offensive catchers of all time. Seems to me like he's rated right where he oughta be.
Here's my addition to the overrated list: Reggie Jackson. Some timely postseason homers (mostly in the '77 WS and '78 playoffs) absolutely made his reputation. Granted, he had 500-plus career homers, but the guy was a .262 career hitter and created a huge breeze with his bat more often than not. Everyone called him Mr. October, but even his career postseason numbers, including a .278 BA, weren't really off the charts.
bigh0rt wrote:I'd probably say Carlton Fisk over Piazza, Craig Biggio over Steve Sax, and Frank Baker over Graig Nettles. I'm also not sure about Blomberg as the most overrated DH as all I know about him is that he was a Yankee and the first ever DH, but beyond that, I hear nothing about the guy ever, so I'm not sure how overrated he could be...
Why do you consider Baker and Biggio to be overrated?
I just don't think Biggio's ever been all that great a player. He has some nice milestone numbers, but, anybody who plays for over 20 years is bound to compile some of them. I've seen the guy ranked as high as the 35th Best Player of All-Time when I'd have trouble calling him the 135th Best Player of All-Time. Sure, a player must sustain a certain level of play to have the longevity that Biggio has, but I just don't think he's even all that impressive compared to some of his contemporaries, never mind all-time. As for Baker, he did look good compared to his contemporaries, but I hear his name lumped in together with Brett, Schmidt, Boggs, and Mathews and I just don't think he belongs there.
What's your list look like Tav?
I think Biggio has been a tremendous player in his career. He was a converted catcher and was one of the best all around players in the game for many years. He's sticking around far too longer than he really should but I don't think he is overrated.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
joecahill wrote:Koufax and Ryan? I can understand a bit of criticism about either, especially about Ryan's control issues. But I don't think it's possible to overrate a first-ballot Hall of Famer, even if they do lead the second-place in career walks by almost a thousand.
Wouldn't it be more possible to overrate a first ballot hall of famer than anyone else? How can you be rated any higher than first ballot hall of famer? The only way you can go is down from there.
I would wholeheartedly agree that Ryan is way overrated. The guy had some of the best pure stuff ever, but his control issues cannot be ignored. He pitched in an era of very low offense, so his career ERA is actually not that special, only five times in the top 5 in a 27 year career. Never won a Cy Young and never really deserved one. He led the league in walks allowed 8 times and came in second 3 times, along with a bunch of other top 10s. In his era, there were a bunch of better pitchers, including Seaver and Carlton by a wide stretch.
Don't get me wrong, I love Nolan Ryan. He could have been one of the best pitchers ever if he got his control issues resolved 15 years sooner, but he didn't.
I could see the argument for Koufax because of his lack of longevity and the fact that he pitched from the high mound, but given the fact that everyone that played against him thinks he's one of the best ever, I'll defer to their judgement. Very few pitchers can put up a 5 year run to match Koufax. Pedro can though.
bigh0rt wrote:I'd probably say Carlton Fisk over Piazza, Craig Biggio over Steve Sax, and Frank Baker over Graig Nettles. I'm also not sure about Blomberg as the most overrated DH as all I know about him is that he was a Yankee and the first ever DH, but beyond that, I hear nothing about the guy ever, so I'm not sure how overrated he could be...
Why do you consider Baker and Biggio to be overrated?
I just don't think Biggio's ever been all that great a player. He has some nice milestone numbers, but, anybody who plays for over 20 years is bound to compile some of them. I've seen the guy ranked as high as the 35th Best Player of All-Time when I'd have trouble calling him the 135th Best Player of All-Time. Sure, a player must sustain a certain level of play to have the longevity that Biggio has, but I just don't think he's even all that impressive compared to some of his contemporaries, never mind all-time. As for Baker, he did look good compared to his contemporaries, but I hear his name lumped in together with Brett, Schmidt, Boggs, and Mathews and I just don't think he belongs there.
What's your list look like Tav?
I think you're underrating him. Keep in mind he played for a long time in the Astrodome. A very credible argument can be made that he was the best player of the 1990s. I don't think I'd go that far, but he's close. I'll take Bonds or Pedro.
he did defend his opinion of Koufax, saying that he was the best SP of his time the last 6 years he played but everyone forgets about the 1st 6...where he was the worst SP and the bullpen would be warming up in the 1st inning when he was on the hill.
Yoda wrote:I think Biggio has been a tremendous player in his career. He was a converted catcher and was one of the best all around players in the game for many years. He's sticking around far too longer than he really should but I don't think he is overrated.
dude went from Catcher to Second base to Outfield and back to Second. Played all very well, for one decade was a threat to do 20+ SB a year (AS A CATCHER!!!!) , and then in his next decade was a 20+ HR dude (AS A 2B !!!!) .
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by joecahill » Tue May 22, 2007 12:32 pm 
