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Most Overrated Players of All-Time

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Postby thedude » Thu May 24, 2007 12:44 am

Catfish Hunter should be on the list of most overrated players. Him being in the hall of fame is a joke.

Tinkers, Evers, and Chance are also very overated, due only to that rhyme.
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Postby Havok1517 » Thu May 24, 2007 1:19 am

noseeum wrote:
sportsaddict wrote:Wow, people saying Ozzie Smith doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame are completely out of line. Has fantasy seriously gotten that ingrained in your head that all you care about are batting averages and on base percentages and slugging percentage and all that stuff? I'm as big a fan of fantasy baseball there is, but to call Ozzie Smith "overrated" because his offense was limited is ridiculous. He's the greatest defensive shortstop ever. Just because he's not flashy with the bat doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF.


Translation: I love the Cardinals. :-D

Just kidding. I didn't even notice that Havok1517 said he shouldn't be in the hall. That's insane. Havok, get back here and apologize!


Sorry, I think a lot of current HOFs shouldn't be in and Ozzie is one of them. There should almost be another HOF for the elite guys like Ruth, Clemens, Griffey, etc. in with guys like Maz, Resse, Rizzuto, etc on the outside looking in. Ozzie was a liability with the bat. There have been great defensive SS (Sanchez, Smith, Vizquel) but I still don't think they deserve to be in the Hall-Of-Fame. I personally think Ozzie is a fringe HOF but made himself a sure thing because the media loved him (adored), the fans loved him, he was flashy, & charismatic. On tangibles, he's worse than Jeter, Tejada & Larkin (the guy that dominated the NL 90's SS position in All-Star starts and GGs), no better than Concepcion, and right there with Trammell imo. Sorry, he good SBs and a decent OBP% but a lifetime BA of .262 and 28 career HRs...doesn't do it for me.
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Postby noseeum » Thu May 24, 2007 3:20 am

Havok1517 wrote:
noseeum wrote:
sportsaddict wrote:Wow, people saying Ozzie Smith doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame are completely out of line. Has fantasy seriously gotten that ingrained in your head that all you care about are batting averages and on base percentages and slugging percentage and all that stuff? I'm as big a fan of fantasy baseball there is, but to call Ozzie Smith "overrated" because his offense was limited is ridiculous. He's the greatest defensive shortstop ever. Just because he's not flashy with the bat doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF.


Translation: I love the Cardinals. :-D

Just kidding. I didn't even notice that Havok1517 said he shouldn't be in the hall. That's insane. Havok, get back here and apologize!


Sorry, I think a lot of current HOFs shouldn't be in and Ozzie is one of them. There should almost be another HOF for the elite guys like Ruth, Clemens, Griffey, etc. in with guys like Maz, Resse, Rizzuto, etc on the outside looking in. Ozzie was a liability with the bat. There have been great defensive SS (Sanchez, Smith, Vizquel) but I still don't think they deserve to be in the Hall-Of-Fame. I personally think Ozzie is a fringe HOF but made himself a sure thing because the media loved him (adored), the fans loved him, he was flashy, & charismatic. On tangibles, he's worse than Jeter, Tejada & Larkin (the guy that dominated the NL 90's SS position in All-Star starts and GGs), no better than Concepcion, and right there with Trammell imo. Sorry, he good SBs and a decent OBP% but a lifetime BA of .262 and 28 career HRs...doesn't do it for me.


Dude, you are sadly mistaken. You can say what you want about Reese and Rizzuto, but Smith was at worst just barely below average with the bat for his time. I actually think he may have been slightly above average for SS, but I could be wrong there. It doesn't matter. That is all well known and understood, but his performance with the glove is so far and above what you could ever expect from an SS, that it gets him in the hall. Over 500 more assists over his career than the average SS would have gotten. Make him an average SS and give him 500 more hits, and his career average goes over .300.

It must be that you just can't imagine him being that much better than the rest at defense, but he was. No one's ever come close. He's pretty much the only player that is so good at defense that it gets him in the hall. A run prevented is as good as a run scored, and this guy was the one of the best defensive players to ever step on the field. He deserves it.
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Postby kaiser » Thu May 24, 2007 11:15 am

Andruw Jones is hugely overrated. As noted above, he joust doesn't get on base enough.
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Postby J35J » Thu May 24, 2007 11:21 am

noseeum wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:
noseeum wrote:
sportsaddict wrote:Wow, people saying Ozzie Smith doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame are completely out of line. Has fantasy seriously gotten that ingrained in your head that all you care about are batting averages and on base percentages and slugging percentage and all that stuff? I'm as big a fan of fantasy baseball there is, but to call Ozzie Smith "overrated" because his offense was limited is ridiculous. He's the greatest defensive shortstop ever. Just because he's not flashy with the bat doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF.


Translation: I love the Cardinals. :-D

Just kidding. I didn't even notice that Havok1517 said he shouldn't be in the hall. That's insane. Havok, get back here and apologize!


Sorry, I think a lot of current HOFs shouldn't be in and Ozzie is one of them. There should almost be another HOF for the elite guys like Ruth, Clemens, Griffey, etc. in with guys like Maz, Resse, Rizzuto, etc on the outside looking in. Ozzie was a liability with the bat. There have been great defensive SS (Sanchez, Smith, Vizquel) but I still don't think they deserve to be in the Hall-Of-Fame. I personally think Ozzie is a fringe HOF but made himself a sure thing because the media loved him (adored), the fans loved him, he was flashy, & charismatic. On tangibles, he's worse than Jeter, Tejada & Larkin (the guy that dominated the NL 90's SS position in All-Star starts and GGs), no better than Concepcion, and right there with Trammell imo. Sorry, he good SBs and a decent OBP% but a lifetime BA of .262 and 28 career HRs...doesn't do it for me.


Dude, you are sadly mistaken. You can say what you want about Reese and Rizzuto, but Smith was at worst just barely below average with the bat for his time. I actually think he may have been slightly above average for SS, but I could be wrong there. It doesn't matter. That is all well known and understood, but his performance with the glove is so far and above what you could ever expect from an SS, that it gets him in the hall. Over 500 more assists over his career than the average SS would have gotten. Make him an average SS and give him 500 more hits, and his career average goes over .300.

It must be that you just can't imagine him being that much better than the rest at defense, but he was. No one's ever come close. He's pretty much the only player that is so good at defense that it gets him in the hall. A run prevented is as good as a run scored, and this guy was the one of the best defensive players to ever step on the field. He deserves it.



patiently awaiting the arrival of "The Cow"....... O:-)
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Postby kaiser » Thu May 24, 2007 11:36 am

Is it me, or does the "quoting" sometimes get out of hand on these boards. One post sometimes takes up an entire page, when you quote the six people who wrote before you!

Just a random observation.
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Postby brewcrew4you » Thu May 24, 2007 11:44 am

Tavish wrote:C - Thurman Munson
1B - Don Mattingly
2B - Jeff Kent
3B - Brooks Robinson (Schmidt isn't far behind)
SS - Phil Rizzuto
OF - Reggie Jackson
OF - Pete Rose
OF - Jose Canseco

SP - Nolan Ryan
SP - Bob Gibson
SP - Don Drysdale
SP - Whitey Ford
CL - All of em


Bob Gibson :-o

When they change the rules of a sport to try and nulify you, I don't think you are overrated.
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Postby mbuser » Thu May 24, 2007 1:01 pm

kaiser wrote:Andruw Jones is hugely overrated. As noted above, he joust doesn't get on base enough.

if that's the knock, then i wonder why he would be considered overrated. when is the last time someone said, 'wow that andruw jones sure does find ways to get on base doesn't he?' with him it's near peerless defensive play and .270/.350/.500 with 34 HR per year over the past 10. as a total package, he's a great 'baseball player'
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Postby Coppermine » Thu May 24, 2007 1:08 pm

mbuser wrote:
kaiser wrote:Andruw Jones is hugely overrated. As noted above, he joust doesn't get on base enough.

if that's the knock, then i wonder why he would be considered overrated. when is the last time someone said, 'wow that andruw jones sure does find ways to get on base doesn't he?' with him it's near peerless defensive play and .270/.350/.500 with 34 HR per year over the past 10. as a total package, he's a great 'baseball player'


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Postby Tavish » Thu May 24, 2007 1:28 pm

brewcrew4you wrote:Bob Gibson :-o

When they change the rules of a sport to try and nulify you, I don't think you are overrated.


1968 ERA Leaders
<pre>
Gibson-STL 1.12
Tiant-CLE 1.60
McDowell-CLE 1.81
McNally-BAL 1.95
McLain-DET 1.96
John-CHW 1.98
Bolin-SFG 1.99
Bahnsen-NYY 2.05
Veale-PIT 2.05
Koosman-NYM 2.08</pre>

They didn't change the rules because of Gibson. They changed the rules because every decent pitcher was putting up low 2.00 ERAs. 1968 was the only season Gibson won the ERA crown and he finished in the Top 3 only 1 other time. That pales in comparison to what the truly legendary pitchers put out.

Walter Johnson - 5 ERA Titles, 10 Top 3
Roger Clemens - 7 ERA Titles, 10 Top 3
Lefty Grove - 9 ERA Titles, 10 Top 3
Pedro Martinez - 5 ERA Titles, 6 Top 3
Pete Alexander - 4 ERA Titles, 6 Top 3
Christy Mathewson - 5 ERA Titles, 8 Top 3
Greg Maddux - 4 ERA Titles, 8 Top 3
Tom Seaver - 3 ERA Titles, 6 Top 3

Gibson was a very good pitcher and was amazing in 1968. But he just isn't in the same class as the other greats where most people usually try and put him.

Most Comparable Pitchers to Bob Gibson
<pre> 1. Jim Palmer (901) *
2. Jack Morris (885)
3. Amos Rusie (880) *
4. Luis Tiant (876)
5. Bob Feller (871) *
6. Vic Willis (867) *
7. Jim Bunning (861) *
8. Don Drysdale (846) *
9. George Mullin (845)
10. Juan Marichal (844) *</pre>

An excellent list of comparable players with many good HoFers filling out the list. It is hard to make a case for any of them except for maybe Feller (if you want to give him extra bonus for missing time for WWII) as being a Top 10 All-Time Pitcher.
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