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Scoring on Lily

Postby rotoquest » Mon May 14, 2007 6:40 am

Did anyone see Lily pitched the 8th inning yesterday? I believe there was no outs with runners on 1st & 3rd. The batter lined out to ramirez at 3rd base, and then ramirez tried to get a double play by throwing to first base. He threw wildly allowing the run to score and the man on first advanced to 2nd. So it was scored an unearned run. The next batter flew out to shallow center field, and the scorer changed it to an earned run because he said that the man on 3rd would have scored anyway. I don't see how an official scorer can make that judgement. There was no guarantee that the guy on 3rd could have made it home, or that Lily would have pitched the same way if runners were still on 1st & 3rd. Has anyone ever seen a call like this before?
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Postby Xtreemes » Mon May 14, 2007 7:47 am

Yeah, its done all the time. The official scorer makes a judgement call if a run would have scored anyway later in an inning. They are given the freedom to make the call.
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Postby Grouperman941 » Mon May 14, 2007 8:26 am

Seems like a bad call to me -- if not for the error, there's 2 outs (unless there was no chance to double up the runner I suppose).
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Postby Rounders » Mon May 14, 2007 8:59 am

Grouperman941 wrote:Seems like a bad call to me -- if not for the error, there's 2 outs (unless there was no chance to double up the runner I suppose).


The runner wouldn't have been out at 1st . He would have been back to the bag before the throw made it there even if it was on target. The next batter hit a deep fly ball to center that would have been a sac fly. Horrible play by Ramirez (took away the opportunity for the double play ball and let the runner score easily).
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Postby Ender » Mon May 14, 2007 9:11 am

I don't see how an official scorer can make that judgement. There was no guarantee that the guy on 3rd could have made it home, or that Lily would have pitched the same way if runners were still on 1st & 3rd. Has anyone ever seen a call like this before?


Um, this is the official scorer's job so of course he has to make the judgement. He is the one who decides if the run would have scored without the error.

To determine whether a run is earned, the official scorer must reconstruct the inning as it would have occurred without the errors (for purposes of this rule, the "errors" also include passed balls). The benefit of the doubt is always given to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by errorless play
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Postby Rounders » Mon May 14, 2007 9:33 am

Ender wrote:
I don't see how an official scorer can make that judgement. There was no guarantee that the guy on 3rd could have made it home, or that Lily would have pitched the same way if runners were still on 1st & 3rd. Has anyone ever seen a call like this before?


Um, this is the official scorer's job so of course he has to make the judgement. He is the one who decides if the run would have scored without the error.

To determine whether a run is earned, the official scorer must reconstruct the inning as it would have occurred without the errors (for purposes of this rule, the "errors" also include passed balls). The benefit of the doubt is always given to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by errorless play


Yeah, with how deep the ball was hit to center, and with Jacque Strap Jones' girlish arm, there was no doubt that run would've scored on a sac fly.
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Postby willy-t » Mon May 14, 2007 9:41 am

Grouperman941 wrote:Seems like a bad call to me -- if not for the error, there's 2 outs (unless there was no chance to double up the runner I suppose).


Scorers never assume the double play. Even if its an easy one, runner on 1st, grounder to 6, if the SS boots it scorer will assume one man should be out.
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Postby Rounders » Mon May 14, 2007 10:15 am

willy-t wrote:
Grouperman941 wrote:Seems like a bad call to me -- if not for the error, there's 2 outs (unless there was no chance to double up the runner I suppose).


Scorers never assume the double play. Even if its an easy one, runner on 1st, grounder to 6, if the SS boots it scorer will assume one man should be out.


Not your typical 6-4-3 double play though. This was a liner to 3B, and Ramirez tried to pick the guy off at 1st. If the ball would've gotten there before the runner did, and the throw was just off the bag, I believe the out would be assumed (but I could be wrong there). But the runner beat the ball to the bag even if the throw was on line, therefore no out is assumed - so the sac fly would've brought in the runner on the next at bat.
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Postby pangbones » Mon May 14, 2007 10:19 am

Rounders wrote:
willy-t wrote:
Grouperman941 wrote:Seems like a bad call to me -- if not for the error, there's 2 outs (unless there was no chance to double up the runner I suppose).


Scorers never assume the double play. Even if its an easy one, runner on 1st, grounder to 6, if the SS boots it scorer will assume one man should be out.


Not your typical 6-4-3 double play though. This was a liner to 3B, and Ramirez tried to pick the guy off at 1st. If the ball would've gotten there before the runner did, and the throw was just off the bag, I believe the out would be assumed (but I could be wrong there). But the runner beat the ball to the bag even if the throw was on line, therefore no out is assumed - so the sac fly would've brought in the runner on the next at bat.


No I believe willy-t is correct, the double play is never assumed.
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Postby Rounders » Mon May 14, 2007 10:20 am

pangbones wrote:
Rounders wrote:
willy-t wrote:
Grouperman941 wrote:Seems like a bad call to me -- if not for the error, there's 2 outs (unless there was no chance to double up the runner I suppose).


Scorers never assume the double play. Even if its an easy one, runner on 1st, grounder to 6, if the SS boots it scorer will assume one man should be out.


Not your typical 6-4-3 double play though. This was a liner to 3B, and Ramirez tried to pick the guy off at 1st. If the ball would've gotten there before the runner did, and the throw was just off the bag, I believe the out would be assumed (but I could be wrong there). But the runner beat the ball to the bag even if the throw was on line, therefore no out is assumed - so the sac fly would've brought in the runner on the next at bat.


No I believe willy-t is correct, the double play is never assumed.


okay, i knew that was the case on grounders, but didn't know if it also applied on liners.
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