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Trade Vetoing Power

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Trade Vetoing Power

Postby Biohazard1454 » Thu May 10, 2007 11:23 am

So I'm a second year fantasy baseball player and I was wondering about peoples opinions about the power of vetoing trades. To set this up, I just recently proposed a trade involving me getting J. Santana for Upton and Capuano. The trade was accepted by the other team and in our league there is a two day period where the other teams in the league can have the power to veto the trade. In this situation they vetoed the trade. A similar situation has happened two years in a row. I will say that there is no collusion going on and the other party involved in the trade was competent when I was discussing the trade possibility. I know that I'm getting a great deal and probably questionable, but I feel like I'm selling B.J. Upton at his highest point. He was getting an upgrade at 2B/3B and a solid pitcher for Santana. Is this such a fair trade, maybe or maybe not.

Anyways, what I was wondering is people's opinion about who should have the power to veto a trade. I personally think that it's not fair for your other competitors in the league to deem a trade fair or not. They are trying to win just like you, so any trade that helps out another team might hinder their chance at winning. Of course that would sway any questionable trade in the favor of a veto. I think that these decisions should go to a competent commish who could evaluate the trade from both sides and ask questions if a trade is one sided.

Well I would love to hear any opinions and look forward to the debate.
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Postby SweetAurillia » Thu May 10, 2007 12:16 pm

I'm in a similar bind as you as well. My view of the veto in the BEGINNING of the season was purely vetoes for collusion but as the season has wore on, I see the point of view that others made about veto for the sake to prevent stacked teams. There was a great example in the Draft, Trade, and Waiver questions forum of a team that consisted of 4 1st round picks through some very lopsided trades. Now any team that faces that stacked team will undoubtedly be crushed, essentially killing the integrity of the league. I think there's a very fine line to distinct whether these lopsided trades are vetoable and I honestly have not figured out that line yet.

For your particular situation, I can see where you're coming from. I'm trying to sell Kinsler high as well and you're doing the same with Upton. But from the rest of the league's standpoint, it's still an early season. Upton and Kinsler can just be having hot streaks and most people are still basing the value of their players based on preseason rankings.

Well as I started typing my answer of whether I think this trade is vetoable, I started to change my mind halfway through typing... lol. So I'm just going to have to say good luck and let someone else answer that one.
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Postby prricci » Thu May 10, 2007 4:44 pm

I fave very strong opinions regarding the veto process and share some of our sentiments. Vetoes should only be enforced if collusion or roster dumping is involved.

Your trade is one-sided, but you worked out a deal (taking you at your word) where you made an arms length transaction in good faith with no coercion or taking advantage of a newbie or cheating of any sorts (collusion) then it should not be vetoed.

This takes the fun out of trading if you cannot work out deals that help your team and your partners, if you have people that are veto happy.

With that said, I can see why there are some people that would think twice about your deal. It is clearly lobsided as mentioned before.
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Postby Biohazard1454 » Thu May 10, 2007 9:06 pm

Thanks for your opinions and I look forward to others. Again I understand that this trade in my favor (by a big margin) and I can understand why people in my league are against it. But I will say this, I do consider myself a very active player and they have the same right as I do. They could try to swing trades in their favor just as easily as I do. Should I be punished for being more aggressive with it? I personally don't think so.

Anyways, as a update after the first veto I did add in Brett Myers to the deal along with Upton and Cap for Santana and a random other guy. Now I know, that this doesn't seem like much more of an add but Myers is a closer with SP eligibility. I think that makes him worth alot more in our league that starts SP, RP, P, P. Kind of like Papelbon last year. I'm not sure if Myers will be the closer for the rest of the season, but if he does I think his value is pretty high. Again though, they vetoed that trade as well. Oh well. I have a pretty good lineup and didn't really need Santana in the first place (if you can believe that). I just had two guys in Upton and Sheffield that I could play at my Utility spot and the logical thing would be to trade one of them to upgrade at another position. I guess that I'll just have to beat them without Santana. That might make it even sweeter in the end.
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Fri May 11, 2007 12:24 am

Thanks for your opinions and I look forward to others. Again I understand that this trade in my favor (by a big margin) and I can understand why people in my league are against it. But I will say this, I do consider myself a very active player and they have the same right as I do. They could try to swing trades in their favor just as easily as I do. Should I be punished for being more aggressive with it? I personally don't think so.


I understand your point here, but you can't hold to it as though it is scripture. Trading should be a way to balance your roster by dealing from strength to improve weaknesses. Some people use it as a modicum for dealing mediocre players for elite players with questionable 2 for 1s, price gauging closers, and sometimes even outright collusion.

You shouldn't be punished for being more aggressive, but you can't simply hide behind the fact that "everyone had the same opportunity." I shouldn't have to offer five hugely lopsided trades, wait until they all get rejected, rinse, and repeat until someone makes a mistake.

And if I did employ such a strategy, I wouldn't simply say "Hey, it's your fault you didn't get there first." A vetoable deal is a vetoable deal.
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Postby Biohazard1454 » Fri May 11, 2007 10:37 am

You shouldn't be punished for being more aggressive, but you can't simply hide behind the fact that "everyone had the same opportunity." I shouldn't have to offer five hugely lopsided trades, wait until they all get rejected, rinse, and repeat until someone makes a mistake.

And if I did employ such a strategy, I wouldn't simply say "Hey, it's your fault you didn't get there first." A vetoable deal is a vetoable deal.


That's a great point CBM and I appreciate your opionion. Let me clearify here because maybe my wording of "aggressive" isn't exactly right. I'm not trying to saturate the trade market by offering trades one after the next to finally get one through. I was just simply trying to sell a guy high.

I understand that some trades are vetoable. For example there was an instance a few years back where there was a trade involving Pujols for Lyle Overbay. That is clearly vetoable because it's a 1B for a 1B. That's not helping the team at any other position by trading Pujols. This clearly disrupts the league balance. This trade, while questionable, still has players at multiple positions where you could make the argument that each team is trying to upgrade.

My questions simply remain for you CBM and others, is it right to let the others in your league determine if a trade is fair (minus any collusion or dumping of players)? I don't think so because they are your competitors and they don't want you to succeed. I actually had a manager last year who was vetoing every trade without looking at it because he was in first place. He didn't want any other team to improve to beat him. That's not fair and is the argument that I'm addressing.

The second question is and relates to the first; how high can you sell a an "so-called experts" lower tiered player if he's playing out of his mind? I'm having this with Upton and I had it last year with Freddie Sanchez. I tried to trade Sanchez last year for a an "so-called" better player and the trade was vetoed there as well. Sanchez was an All-Star last year and had a ridiculous batting average, but he came out of no where. Since he wasn't a "big-name" I couldn't trade him for a so-called "big-name."

Again, I would love to hear more opionions on the matter from people who have played much longer than I have. I know that it's kind of a gray issue, but I think if you have a competent commish he should handle the trades not the others in the league. Anyways, thanks for all the input.
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Postby oxhammer » Fri May 11, 2007 6:27 pm

I should have read this thread before having started mine! The trade I am currently involved in is this one:

http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/foru ... highlight=

Especially now that BJ Ryan is out for the year, the guy definitely needs a closer. I was trying to give him a good, not great, outfielder with Chris Ray. He turned that down and said he needed a catcher. So, Ray and Ramon Hernandez is what he got. Of course I feel I'm getting the better deal. I do think he's still pretty stacked at starting pitching and think that Ray helps his team. Not sure about Hernandez, but it's up to him whether he's upgrading at catcher or not. Hernandez has been pretty hot since coming off the DL. Makes me wish I offered him Kenji Johjima instead

I'm the commissioner of the league and I'm trying to be fair. Just not sure if allowing the trade would be or not
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Postby powenM » Fri May 11, 2007 6:39 pm

I believe u should read the rules b4 joining any league.

If u dont like them talk to Commish in preseason. tell him u want to know the process on how things will be done. if u dont like it move onto another league.
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Postby Biohazard1454 » Fri May 11, 2007 10:19 pm

I believe u should read the rules b4 joining any league.

If u dont like them talk to Commish in preseason. tell him u want to know the process on how things will be done. if u dont like it move onto another league.


I was waiting for someone to say something like this. It seems one person always posts this when a question like this arrises. I will answer it by saying I have this league with my friends and I enjoy playing with them. That's not the point. I am not mad at the league that I play in, I'm just debating a rule that many leagues have. I will say that I have proposed that we address this question in the off-season.

The real point at hand is addressing who should get the right to veto a trade and it seems like a rather important question since you notice that there are many threads that read "is this trade vetoable" in this forum. Some people believe the league should vote, and others believe a commish should have the right. What's your opinion powenM and why?
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Postby noles1 » Tue May 15, 2007 2:01 pm

This is my second year playing fantasy baseball. I joined a public league on CBS sportsline. The rules are, it is a 10 team league, if 4 teams veto the trade, then the trade is vetoed. The rules clearly state the veto process is setup to prevent collusion between owners.

The problem with this setup is some of the owners veto just because they don't like a trade. Or they feel one of the owners may be benefiting too much. I just has this trade vetoed. I was offered Derek Jeter for Brandon Webb. I accepted, but 4 owners vetoed. Sucks because it is a fair and even trade.

I ran a past last week, and many people suggested joining a commisioner run league who decides if the trade should be vetoed or not.
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