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Postby Coppermine » Thu May 03, 2007 4:08 pm

Most children I come in contact with are very well-behaved and respectful. What kind of age groups are we talking about here?

My girlfriend however works at a middle school in an fairly impoverished area. While she says that the majority of kids are extremely well-behaved, there are many problems. This is a direct result of poverty and general lack of culture and education in the school's area not to mention a lack of parental involvement. This is in contrast to a public middle school she worked at in a very upscale area outside of Philadelphia where there were almost no problems and the majority of parents played an active role in their kids' lives. The occasional bad seed was rare indeed.

While I think most areas fall somewhere in the middle, I don't think it's fair and perhaps a bit ignorant to suggest that the majority of kids (young adults, pre-teens, teenagers?) are immoral and poorly mannered, particularly compared to those 50 years ago.

Madison seems to be making his judgments based solely on observations he makes now compared to observations he made when he was growing up. "Back in my day, children respected their elders." Now, Madison, did you're grandfather tell you that when you were a kid? :-b

And the cycle continues...
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Postby josebach » Thu May 03, 2007 4:15 pm

I'm slammed at work, otherwise I would have posted something very similar Copper... nice post. My friend's wife works at a school in an impoverished area and she has an EXTREMELY difficult time getting the parents involved.
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Postby great gretzky » Thu May 03, 2007 8:01 pm

Coppermine wrote:
great gretzky wrote:I'll agree to a point. Although certain things such as murder, theft, crimes against children, etc., don't fall under "black and white" to me. I really don't care if someone labels me "culturally insensitive" when I condemn genital mutilation in females etc. ... Or where was that? I believe it was Saudi Arabia where a girls school was burning down, but they weren't saved because the firefighters were men, and it would have put the females in a compromising situation. (I may have gotten the facts wrong) Those things I think are unviersally wrong. But then you get into sex, intoxicant use, things like that where I think it is far less black and white.


Yeah, something that constitutes a felony can pretty much be chalked up as immoral... but it's immoral because people are harmed and I think that's pretty much a given; and not quite what a morality argument is about.


sleeping with a 14 year old here is a felony, and we all agree )I hope that it's warped) but plenty of nations/cultures don't see the harm. My point was that it is what a morality argument is about--at least an argument/discussion of moral relativity. There are many who thing any moral absolute by its very nature is unjust, because we can't "proscribe" to others.
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Postby Coppermine » Thu May 03, 2007 8:09 pm

great gretzky wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
great gretzky wrote:I'll agree to a point. Although certain things such as murder, theft, crimes against children, etc., don't fall under "black and white" to me. I really don't care if someone labels me "culturally insensitive" when I condemn genital mutilation in females etc. ... Or where was that? I believe it was Saudi Arabia where a girls school was burning down, but they weren't saved because the firefighters were men, and it would have put the females in a compromising situation. (I may have gotten the facts wrong) Those things I think are unviersally wrong. But then you get into sex, intoxicant use, things like that where I think it is far less black and white.


Yeah, something that constitutes a felony can pretty much be chalked up as immoral... but it's immoral because people are harmed and I think that's pretty much a given; and not quite what a morality argument is about.


sleeping with a 14 year old here is a felony, and we all agree )I hope that it's warped) but plenty of nations/cultures don't see the harm. My point was that it is what a morality argument is about--at least an argument/discussion of moral relativity. There are many who thing any moral absolute by its very nature is unjust, because we can't "proscribe" to others.


I don't know about "plenty." Perhaps indigenous African pygmies or Mormons... but for the most part, an adult sleeping with a 14 year old is not only illegal, it's considered a social stigma as well.
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Postby Madison » Fri May 04, 2007 1:57 am

josebach wrote:
Madison wrote:The majority of the kids I've dealt with are not good kids and the parents either don't care, or don't have time to deal with it, and the problem children far outweigh the good ones in my area. 3 busses drop off roughly 75 kids total each day in my area. Maybe 10 of them are good kids, the other 65 are too busy fighting (literally), cussing, destroying property, and just generally acting like total idiots every single day. Age range from 7 years old or so all the way up to high school.


That really sucks! Where do you work? If you dislike kids that much, you might be in the wrong profession. :-o


Doesn't have anything to do with where I work, this is just around where I live. Today two kids got off the bus arguing, yelling, cussing each other out, shoving, got nose to nose and even threw a few misguided punches (none landed - hence "misguided") and then one kid went into his house, and came back out and threatened the other kid with a knife. He was rougly 10 or 11 years old, and the kid he threatened was smaller than him, but roughly the same age. Around 20 kids had surrounded them and were yelling for the kid to cut the other one, or for them to fight and quit dancing, etc, etc, etc. The police had to be called and 4 squad cars were talking to everyone when I left. Lovely huh?

Coppermine wrote:Madison seems to be making his judgments based solely on observations he makes now compared to observations he made when he was growing up. "Back in my day, children respected their elders." Now, Madison, did you're grandfather tell you that when you were a kid?

And the cycle continues...


No, I spent very little time with my grandparents. What I can tell you is if I acted one tenth as badly as quite a few kids I see act, I wouldn't have lived any longer. Like what I just wrote above, if I had any place in that, be it in the fighting or a bystander trying to egg it on, my father would have killed me, plain and simple. The sad fact is those same kids will be out there doing the same thing again tomorrow because the parents don't care, the system doesn't work, and it's all continuing to get worse. The only question is if it will be empty fists, blades, or guns (and yes, I've seen plenty of kids fire guns in my area, so it wouldn't be a surprise at all). As a 10-12 year old, a knife fight was extremely rare, guns were nowhere to be found, and drugs were not all the prevelant, and I didn't grow up in the best of areas. Now it's commonplace, even in decent areas.

As I've said before though, everyone has their own opinions based on what they see and read. You disagree and that's fine, but visit me and I'll show you the other side.
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Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
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Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Postby josebach » Fri May 04, 2007 8:47 am

Madison wrote:No, I spent very little time with my grandparents. What I can tell you is if I acted one tenth as badly as quite a few kids I see act, I wouldn't have lived any longer. Like what I just wrote above, if I had any place in that, be it in the fighting or a bystander trying to egg it on, my father would have killed me, plain and simple. The sad fact is those same kids will be out there doing the same thing again tomorrow because the parents don't care, the system doesn't work, and it's all continuing to get worse. The only question is if it will be empty fists, blades, or guns (and yes, I've seen plenty of kids fire guns in my area, so it wouldn't be a surprise at all). As a 10-12 year old, a knife fight was extremely rare, guns were nowhere to be found, and drugs were not all the prevelant, and I didn't grow up in the best of areas. Now it's commonplace, even in decent areas.

As I've said before though, everyone has their own opinions based on what they see and read. You disagree and that's fine, but visit me and I'll show you the other side.


I don't believe what you're describing is in any way commonplace in decent areas. You bringing up guns retouches on the violence issue. Everybody says how violent America is and they are essentially right. There are statistics to prove it. What they don't point out, however, is that a majority of violence is localized to certain areas. If you've got kids out shooting guns and fighting with knives all the time, it sounds like you live in one of these bad areas and I really don't think making geralizations about all kids based on the kids in your area is in any way fair. What you're describing is in no way the norm. Just my .02.
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Fri May 04, 2007 8:49 am

So, in your experience, kids today are more respectful than they were 50 years ago? ;-7
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Postby josebach » Fri May 04, 2007 9:44 am

Omaha Red Sox wrote:So, in your experience, kids today are more respectful than they were 50 years ago? ;-7


To some people, yes. To others, no.

In no way would I want my kids being brought up with the 50's mentality of sexism and racism. Kids are taught tolerance today. What would you rather have, a tolerant yet rebellious, free thinking child or a backwards thinking submissive child? Actually, don't answer that. ;-7

I've been called "sir" by enough kids to realize there are still parents out there doing a good job. Making blanket statments about kids being bad today just isn't accurate. Now if you want to talk about the increase in bad parenting, I'll agree with that. People who had bad parents become bad parents and it seems that these people for some reason are the ones having the most children. Because of this, the number of bad kid/bad parents goes up at a higher rate than good kids. It doesn't mean that good kids and good parents don't still exist.

I'm busy and I know I could probably have explained myself better but, I think the general gist is there.
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Fri May 04, 2007 10:32 am

josebach wrote:Making blanket statments about kids being bad today just isn't accurate.


Double standard here jose. You're making blanket statements about sexism and racism influencing children of the '50s.

Then you go on to say:
josebach wrote:Now if you want to talk about the increase in bad parenting, I'll agree with that. People who had bad parents become bad parents and it seems that these people for some reason are the ones having the most children. Because of this, the number of bad kid/bad parents goes up at a higher rate than good kids. It doesn't mean that good kids and good parents don't still exist.


I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Yes, there were bad aspects of history and we've learned from our mistakes. But there were very many fine qualities of history that have been forgotten. Respect, honor, duty, etc. Give me a classroom of kids displaying these qualities today and I'll wear a Vote 4 Hillary button. You won't find it. You said it. Bad parenting breeds bad kids who breed more bad parenting who... You're flipflopping. To admit that bad parenting has increased the number of bad kids, but say we're better off than we were is :-? . I know you're stuck on the sexism and racism thing, but those things still exist today as well, just in different degrees and in different ways. Strip clubs and pornography are pretty sexist and focussing on Cho's nationality is pretty racist. It still happens. But you're looking at a textbook with a picture of a lynching in the '50s and assume it was commonplace.
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Postby josebach » Fri May 04, 2007 11:11 am

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
josebach wrote:Making blanket statments about kids being bad today just isn't accurate.


Double standard here jose. You're making blanket statements about sexism and racism influencing children of the '50s.

Then you go on to say:
josebach wrote:Now if you want to talk about the increase in bad parenting, I'll agree with that. People who had bad parents become bad parents and it seems that these people for some reason are the ones having the most children. Because of this, the number of bad kid/bad parents goes up at a higher rate than good kids. It doesn't mean that good kids and good parents don't still exist.


I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Yes, there were bad aspects of history and we've learned from our mistakes. But there were very many fine qualities of history that have been forgotten. Respect, honor, duty, etc. Give me a classroom of kids displaying these qualities today and I'll wear a Vote 4 Hillary button. You won't find it. You said it. Bad parenting breeds bad kids who breed more bad parenting who... You're flipflopping. To admit that bad parenting has increased the number of bad kids, but say we're better off than we were is :-? . I know you're stuck on the sexism and racism thing, but those things still exist today as well, just in different degrees and in different ways. Strip clubs and pornography are pretty sexist and focussing on Cho's nationality is pretty racist. It still happens. But you're looking at a textbook with a picture of a lynching in the '50s and assume it was commonplace.


Flipflopping? I'll make it simple.

There was bad and good back in the 50s. There was bad and good in modern day. We both agree, right? I believe they offset each other and you don't. I believe we're evolving and you believe we're regressing. Does that about sum it up?
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