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Postby josebach » Thu May 03, 2007 9:58 am

Coppermine wrote:I think morals are a little too ambiguous to get into a discussion on what choices are consider right, and therefore moral and which choices are wrong, resulting in an immoral decision.

Morality is far from black and white.


"Moral Relativism"... I'm a subscriber. :-)
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Postby great gretzky » Thu May 03, 2007 10:04 am

I'll agree to a point. Although certain things such as murder, theft, crimes against children, etc., don't fall under "black and white" to me. I really don't care if someone labels me "culturally insensitive" when I condemn genital mutilation in females etc. ... Or where was that? I believe it was Saudi Arabia where a girls school was burning down, but they weren't saved because the firefighters were men, and it would have put the females in a compromising situation. (I may have gotten the facts wrong) Those things I think are unviersally wrong. But then you get into sex, intoxicant use, things like that where I think it is far less black and white.
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Thu May 03, 2007 10:05 am

josebach wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:And marriages fail and kids are left to fend for themselves because parents now have a choice? I think our definitions of morality are different. I'm talking morality among actual individuals. Having a choice and making the wrong one, as you pointed out, is immoral. Having the choice and making the right one is moral. Simply having the choice does not decide morality.

Not sure I get you here. Are you saying that choosing to be a stay at home Mom instead of having a career is a morally superior choice? Or that having a career is the "wrong choice"? Don't want to misunderstand.


I wasn't speaking specifically about a mother (and who says it has to be the mother?) staying at home with her children. I was challenging your perception of what morality is. You are defining morality by the choices we can make. I am defining morality by the choices we do make.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Thu May 03, 2007 10:42 am

great gretzky wrote:Be that as it may, in Western societies the age of the first marriage is at a historical high, and the onset of puberty is one of the lowest in history. In other words, my point is expecting people to wait longer for their first intercourse, and then calling them immoral for not doing so is a tad askew? No? And as far as the black death thing, yea marriage age was forced up FROM 16 to 22 ... Still it shows how much earlier humans were getting married prior to this catstrophe. In addition, the age of 22 is still not the average age of marriage now. And I'll throw in, that on average kids are hitting puberty earlier now (in general). So effectively, if you preach hard core abstinence, it could be argued that you are asking the general population of young people to wait longer for first intercourse than was expected of humans much throughout history. And in addition, family structures historically have been radically different. That's my point. Is you can't sit there and pontificate when realistically in america in the "golden age", a couple could get married at 18 where only the husband had a high school or associates degree, and expect to have a decent lifestyle. A young couple with two college degrees int his day and age could be struggling.

There is a lot to go into it, and the sex/marriage issue of this is kind of an aside. I jsut think that the daily realities of American life and family structure have changed so fast, that it's unfair to judge too harshly, even ignoring the realtive morality of divorce. How many people in the day made serious, serious mistakes in whom they married, only to be trapped? I think on the level, its a good thing that couples explore every aspect of a mature relationship. I think its the people who jsut sleep with whomever that qualify as immoral.


I was with you completely on this until your last sentence. Still though, excluding that, very nice post.
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Postby josebach » Thu May 03, 2007 10:43 am

great gretzky wrote:I'll agree to a point. Although certain things such as murder, theft, crimes against children, etc., don't fall under "black and white" to me. I really don't care if someone labels me "culturally insensitive" when I condemn genital mutilation in females etc. ... Or where was that? I believe it was Saudi Arabia where a girls school was burning down, but they weren't saved because the firefighters were men, and it would have put the females in a compromising situation. (I may have gotten the facts wrong) Those things I think are unviersally wrong. But then you get into sex, intoxicant use, things like that where I think it is far less black and white.


I completely agree that there are a lot of issues that are most definitely "black and white", but that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody agrees with me. For example, your firefighter comments... 150 years ago, I'm sure a lot of people didn't think it was immoral to kill a slave as they were considered by many to be less than human. That's how certain groups in this world currently view women. To them, their actions aren't immoral.

I guess my main point is that just because I have my own ideas of what's moral and immoral, doesn't mean everybody else agrees with me and I shouldn't act like and/or tell them they're wrong and I'm right. Our country is filled with judgemental people that don't subscribe to this way of thinking.
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Postby Coppermine » Thu May 03, 2007 10:43 am

great gretzky wrote:I'll agree to a point. Although certain things such as murder, theft, crimes against children, etc., don't fall under "black and white" to me. I really don't care if someone labels me "culturally insensitive" when I condemn genital mutilation in females etc. ... Or where was that? I believe it was Saudi Arabia where a girls school was burning down, but they weren't saved because the firefighters were men, and it would have put the females in a compromising situation. (I may have gotten the facts wrong) Those things I think are unviersally wrong. But then you get into sex, intoxicant use, things like that where I think it is far less black and white.


Yeah, something that constitutes a felony can pretty much be chalked up as immoral... but it's immoral because people are harmed and I think that's pretty much a given; and not quite what a morality argument is about.
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Postby Madison » Thu May 03, 2007 3:02 pm

josebach wrote:
Art Vandalay wrote:I essentially agree with you, but how did sex get dragged into this? I guess I just don't buy the assertion that to have sex or not is a moral decision.

I don't think choosing to have pre-marital sex is a moral decision either, but I don't believe Madison agrees so I brought it up as an example.


There are more important things to discuss than sex.

josebach wrote:
Madison wrote:There are tons of factors, but something to keep in mind though, is back in the old days there was a parent home taking care of the kids instead of the kids being raised by television or an institution, so it's not like I'm saying anything other than times have changed, and so has the younger generation. Better? Worse? Matter of perception and what types of youth you see and/or deal with on a daily basis, and what you call better or worse. Some things are better, some are worse. My perception from the youths I see and deal with, is that it's amazingly worse on the overall and not going to get any better anytime soon.


I personally haven't had that many bad experiences with kids and most of the kids/children that I've been in contact have been good kids with good parents. It all boils down to partenting, and where I agree that two parents is definitely better than one, the reason divorce is higher now and that more women choose to work is not because people are less moral now, it's because now they actually have a choice. Back in the "good old days", women were subservient and essentially trapped.

Because I haven't had the experiences you've had with kids, I can't say you're wrong for coming to the conclusion you did. From my experience, however, the good kids faaaaar outweigh the bad kids. It's a real shame you don't agree.


Just where we have different life experiences and what news stories stick out the most to us (you saw the one about kids not being able to get jobs themselves right? - have to have mommy or daddy help them? - absurdly stupid kids there). The majority of the kids I've dealt with are not good kids and the parents either don't care, or don't have time to deal with it, and the problem children far outweigh the good ones in my area. 3 busses drop off roughly 75 kids total each day in my area. Maybe 10 of them are good kids, the other 65 are too busy fighting (literally), cussing, destroying property, and just generally acting like total idiots every single day. Age range from 7 years old or so all the way up to high school.

Granted, I have donated my time and knowledge to coach youth bowlers either during their leagues, or when they have the time and their parents can participate, and on the overall those kids are good kids. Unfortunately, the ones I deal with on a daily basis, the ones I read stories about daily, and the ones I see on the news daily, are the ones that ruin my entire perception of today's youth.

I do agree it all boils down to parenting, and unfortunately, to survive in the country today, most households need two incomes in order to prosper and provide for kids. It can be done on one income if the income is big enough, but generally people don't make enough to do it on one income. One cannot blame both parents for working, it's simply the way it is nowadays, but it does affect how children are raised, and what type of people they will become, morally, ethically, and intelligently. From everything that's out there, it seems to be on a very sharp downward path with no means of getting better.

We all have different things we notice though, so opinions are simply that. Opinions.
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Postby knapplc » Thu May 03, 2007 3:14 pm

Madison wrote:There are more important things to discuss than sex.


I nominate this for the single least accurate statement ever in the history of the Cafe. :-D


OK - it's been a while for me and that's on my mind right now. Maybe I'm not impartial at the moment. =)
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Postby Madison » Thu May 03, 2007 3:29 pm

knapplc wrote:
Madison wrote:There are more important things to discuss than sex.


I nominate this for the single least accurate statement ever in the history of the Cafe. :-D


OK - it's been a while for me and that's on my mind right now. Maybe I'm not impartial at the moment. =)


Guess I should have stipulated that I meant in this thread and dealing with morals :-b . Kids having sex is one of my least concerns, I believe kids having respect for others and others property is more important, I think them not shooting at each other is more important, I think not beating each other so bad that one or more winds up in the hospital is more important, I think they should be raised properly so that they are not getting hauled off to jail for destruction of property, yadda, yadda, yadda. ;-)
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Postby josebach » Thu May 03, 2007 4:02 pm

Madison wrote:The majority of the kids I've dealt with are not good kids and the parents either don't care, or don't have time to deal with it, and the problem children far outweigh the good ones in my area. 3 busses drop off roughly 75 kids total each day in my area. Maybe 10 of them are good kids, the other 65 are too busy fighting (literally), cussing, destroying property, and just generally acting like total idiots every single day. Age range from 7 years old or so all the way up to high school.


That really sucks! Where do you work? If you dislike kids that much, you might be in the wrong profession. :-o
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