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Postby jonnyblack » Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:20 pm

I like them all, but I agree that 5x5 is representative of stats, and that more would be redundant.

I like ops as an evaluator in my draft sheets, but I like BA is fantasy. OBP would be fine too, but as Trev (I beleive without re-reading) said. Baseball is a game of tradition.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:44 pm

jonnyblack wrote: Baseball is a game of tradition.


But is fantasy? And to be honest, the game i see now, is really night and day from the game 30 years ago. Things change in life, hopefully for the better.
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Postby moose » Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:12 pm

I'm on the side of OBP, SLG.

I'm commish of a brand new 6x6

We use

OBP, SLG, R, RBI, SB, HR

W, SV, K/BB, WHIP, HD, ERA
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Re: Stat Categories in Fantasy Baseball

Postby Mookie4ever » Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:46 pm

HOOTIE wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:I prefer using BA. If you are so good (or so much better than your teammates) that you are getting pitched aroung (Bonds) then you suffer in realityand you should also suffer in fantasy sports. I don't even like it when you get a point in H2H for a BB.

Baseball is after all a team game. We should know who plays on a loaded lineup and who plays with stiffs and adjust our opinions of a player accordingly.


Walking isn't really suffering. Bonds is by far the best offensive player in bb.
Bonds 15.11 runs per 27
Pujols 10.79 runs per 27

By not using walks or oba in fantasy, you are taking a big part of real bb out of fantasy. If roto was more realistic, Bonds would be a top 3 pick easy.


Most people think that by giving Bonds the intentional walk the pitcher is taking something away from Bonds (ie making him suffer) - presumably he could do a lot more offensive damage if they risked putting the ball over the plate or else they would not give him the free pass.

My point was that even without counting OBP his fantasy, owners are rewarded for the opposing team's cowardice (15.11 runs per 27). There is no need to place additional emphasis on the BB by counting OBP.

btw - congrats on 3,000 from me and all of the Blowfish.
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Re: Stat Categories in Fantasy Baseball

Postby HOOTIE » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:04 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:My point was that even without counting OBP his fantasy, owners are rewarded for the opposing team's cowardice (15.11 runs per 27). There is no need to place additional emphasis on the BB by counting OBP.

btw - congrats on 3,000 from me and all of the Blowfish.


Thanks MOOKIE. ;-D

If you don't count oba, how are walks rewarded in fantasy? That 15.11, is runs created per 27 outs, not runs scored. Sorry if that was confusing? By not counting oba, the player losses abs, so his average carries less weight then others who don't walk. The rbis will be lower, since the bat is removed. I see Bonds going around 12-15 in drafts.
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Postby Aikoprod » Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:26 pm

We use OBA and Total Bases. At one point we had TB and SLg but that was truly redundant. We decided on the TB because we wanted to keep it simple. It's easier checking your TB's daily than computing your slg pct.
We go:
R, HR, RBI, SB, TB, OBA
W, S, H, K, ERA, WHIP

If Yahoo gave us the option we'd go S-BS & SB-CS
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Postby Arlo » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:18 am

HOOTIE wrote:Arlo wrote:
I'm not a big fan of ops, though...


Are you talking roto or real life?

At the risk of drawing the wrath of a whole lot of people: both.

In roto, I'm wary of further increasing the value of power by substituting ops for avg. Replacing avg with obp works well, since it not only includes a previously neglected aspect of the game, but - equally importantly - doesn't disrupt the existing balance between the categories. OPS, on the other hand, more radically changes the environment. What to use is a matter of taste, of course; this is just my highly subjective opinion. :-)

In real life, I admit that I don't like ops as much as most people do, or at least the way it's viewed as the stat to end all stats. To begin with, it's flawed as a means of evaluating a player's value (with obp being undervalued compared with slg, for one thing). If you're looking for a statistical way of measuring a player's contribution at the plate, there are far better stats than ops. On the other hand, ops, which combines an at-bat-based stat with a plate-appearance-based stat, doesn't measure anything concrete. OPS seems like a clumsy go-between that occupies the ground between the fundamental numbers generated on the field and statistical relevance.

And man, am I going to get it for that... !+)
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Postby Mookie4ever » Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:52 am

I just do not like the walk as a stat in fantasy baseball. When you get down to it - watching four balls go by is not an athletic feat. The ultimate mockery was made of it by Bill Veeck when he put a midget (dwarf, vertically challenged person...) in to hit once. He got four straight balls and took first base (that's a 1.00 OBP for all you sabermetricians).

As was said before: this is a game of tradition. After all, it is still the Batting Crown - not the OBP or OPS Crown.
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Postby HOOTIE » Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:35 am

Arlo wrote:In real life, I admit that I don't like ops as much as most people do, or at least the way it's viewed as the stat to end all stats. To begin with, it's flawed as a means of evaluating a player's value (with obp being undervalued compared with slg, for one thing).


You are correct. It is flawed because a 300/500 ops looks the same as a 400/400 ops. Oba is more important. But OPS is a simple stat, (add oba + slugging), and as far as simple stats, it's probably the best. If you want a true clearer picture, you have to dig deeper, (saber). If you want to truly measure offensive performance, runs created per 27 will do as good as any. But it's not a simple, easy accessible stat. OPS is. Btw, i don't care for ops by itself, OPS+, which park adjusts is much better. It's not accurate, but frankly i haven't come across a simple stat that's better. You don't mention what you like?

I agree in fantasy, oba instead of average works better then ops. I'm probably guilty of using ops to much, but i don't use the better stuff, because most people aren't familiar with it and will say, what's that ****.
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Postby Arlo » Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:57 pm

Point taken.

You're right, of course, HOOTIE: the advantage of ops is that it's simple and easily calculated, especially compared to many of sabermetrics' other offerings. And that's certainly a significant advantage (although multiplying obp by 1.2 or whatever the factor should be wouldn't be making it that much more complicated).

Maybe I'm just not wild about the fact that melding obp and slg into ops is in a sense a reduction of information. (What do I like? OBP and slg on their own are just fine.) But I'll agree that if you're aware of its shortcomings and limitations - and that's an important if - it can be a very solid tool for gauging a player's value at the plate. The benefits are certainly impressive when compared with its complexity/calculation time.

I guess that in the end, my gripe probably isn't really with ops itself, but with the almost Tolkienesque one-stat-to-rule-them-all mystique that's become attached to it (which probably doesn't make it any easier for what you called 'the better stuff' like runs created or extrapolated runs to gain acceptance).

Or maybe I'm just being grouchy... ;-)
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