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McCarthyism Right Around the Corner?

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Postby PlayingWithFire » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:10 pm

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:Somehow I think if they told this particular individual, a retired colonel in the Marine Corps [awarded the Purple Heart and Distinguished Service Cross] who remained a professional soldier for more than five years and then accepted a commission as a reserve office, serving for an additional 19 years who also is the leading Professor of Jurisprudence (emeritus) a few details, we would be safe. Shoot, read his work. I trust this guy, despite my strong opposition to some of his views, more than I do most government.


When it comes to security measures, there should be no exceptions period. I don't care if he's a former marine or a current communist party member. Give them the same treatment. Nothing against him, but being a former marine doesn't make you immune to doing things detrimental to America.

At the very least there sould be a bi-partisan oversight committee.


I agree, not really sure what's the situation here so I can't comment.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:11 pm

Who cares?

Let's assume that this secret list compiled by secret people exists. What practical effect has it had? A guy missed a flight.

I think that your comparison to McCarthyism is extreme and sensational. This is absolutely nothing like McCarthyism and there is no evidence or reason to suspect that this has the possibility to be anything like McCarthyism. In your theory what foreign power are the targets of this campaign supposed to be spying for or sympathizing with? In what possible way is this comparable to McCarthyism? I don't get it.
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Postby PlayingWithFire » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:14 pm

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:
PlayingWithFire wrote:He was, ultimately, allowed to fly. And from what he said"10 min to talk to the TSA agent"+going to the room+extra talk with the clerk. He probably wasn't delayed too much(1-2 hours max?)

As to the luggage, shit happens. I lost my first gen Ipod when NorthWest lost my baggage, the compensation sucked too.

I'm not backing the TSA, They padded me TWICE my last 2 flights and went through my whole baggage. I have nothing good to say about them other than they are quite polite, but there's just nothing too substantial here for me to get really worked up


Read the details, consider the preexisting conditions. Taking such a shallow approach is not something we can afford to do. This administration has proven it needs baby sitting, I'm not advocating more than that.


Again, I'm not saying this is definitely not happening. But from what I know so far. It's a reach. I'm not taking a shallow approach, I'm taking a "I'm not going to do anything until I see something more concrete." approach. Maybe more will surface out of the water the following months, but I'm definitely not willing to fight with what I know so far. I've had my share of crazily believing conspiracy theories before proven wrong, and I'm not easily committing myself to another one.
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Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:24 pm

I think anyone will find my ideas quite American and quite prudent. Based on two guiding principals, "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" and a system of checks and balances, I would advocate for the current administration to be kept in check by a competent and substantially powered co-authority which would assure the integrity of the constitution is maintained in it's application. I'm sure a figurehead of such a system is inaction currently, but I want to see some teeth. They've gone far enough in other areas, and damaged our credibility as a nation while doing so. If one does not see the seed of a list deeming American's as terrorists without substantial evidence and based only on speech or protest against the current administration, a list which has no accountability, then it is your my friends who do not fully understand the concept of McCarthyism. Only if we could have one face, one overbearing representative to pair such an idea with in today's world might the most prudent consequences of such policy be fully recognized.
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Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:26 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:Who cares?

Let's assume that this secret list compiled by secret people exists. What practical effect has it had? A guy missed a flight.

I think that your comparison to McCarthyism is extreme and sensational. This is absolutely nothing like McCarthyism and there is no evidence or reason to suspect that this has the possibility to be anything like McCarthyism. In your theory what foreign power are the targets of this campaign supposed to be spying for or sympathizing with? In what possible way is this comparable to McCarthyism? I don't get it.


You don't, you're in Canada. Read the post above. My comparisons are to a seed of such policy. Do you see the question mark in the title? or the words "around the corner"? Squashing the idea of even debating such potential only encourages the feeling of overbearing government.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:40 pm

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:Who cares?

Let's assume that this secret list compiled by secret people exists. What practical effect has it had? A guy missed a flight.

I think that your comparison to McCarthyism is extreme and sensational. This is absolutely nothing like McCarthyism and there is no evidence or reason to suspect that this has the possibility to be anything like McCarthyism. In your theory what foreign power are the targets of this campaign supposed to be spying for or sympathizing with? In what possible way is this comparable to McCarthyism? I don't get it.


You don't, you're in Canada. Read the post above. My comparisons are to a seed of such policy. Do you see the question mark in the title? or the words "around the corner"? Squashing the idea of even debating such potential only encourages the feeling of overbearing government.


lol

You may be on to something. I would say though that this is the seed of "1984" and not McCarthyism. I believe that the list is being compiled by the newly formed Thought Police and that he was held off of that plane for a thoughtcrime. Laugh if you will but it is possible. Before we know it we'll have Big Brother looking over our shoulders and bad Annie Lennox music blaring from public speakers.

Glad that you caught this. An overbearing silly Canadian like me needs these things pointed out for him.
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Postby RugbyD » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:05 pm

i've only hopped around a few pages of this post and already feel like i could have wasted the day writing a book's worth of responses. thank goodness work was busy :-°

anyways, when it was reported that names of extremely dangerous people are kept off the no-fly list, I forever cast out the idea as a total farce, especially when the govt and their state-of-the-art UNIVACs can't distinguish enough between John Smiths and cast them all into red-taped oblivion.
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Postby Madison » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:25 pm

8 pages on this junk? :-b Just from the very first post:

"We ban a lot of people from flying because of that," a clerk said.


No airline controls the Do Not Fly list. :-b

The clerk responded, "That'll do it."


No it won't. If "Big Brother" ;-7 was really watching like that and that overly concerned about it, half the country wouldn't be able to fly. :-b

How many discussions go on daily about Bush possibly breaking the Constitution? Both on the airwaves and on the internet? All of those people are banned from flying? Of course not.

The only possible way this story is true is if he dealt with a really stupid ticket agent. That has nothing to do with government. :-b

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:And other than to claim it happened himself, is there a way to prove it? Are the airlines going to grant interviews? Is the government going to release the list? How could one prove it did happen?


What do you want proven? Surely not that the story is correct or accurate. :-b

He got delayed flying. Big deal. Happens. Doubt anyone disagrees about that part. *Yawn*

Absolutely Adequate wrote:That nobody has defended the Bush adminstration thusly, I think, shows that we've lost something.


There's been nothing to defend. I guess there's one thing that could technically be considered a defense, but that's later in the thread.

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:We have not only lost something, but been further conditioned to accept authority and forget about freedom.


Freedom does not equal having zero authority figures, laws to follow, etc. You are describing anarchy, not freedom, if you don't think there should be people with higher authority than you defending this country.


Good post by Cu ;-D . I agree. I don't buy this story at all. It doesn't make sense. You'd think with as highly touted as this guy is, the least he could do is make the pieces fit enough for this to be remotely convincing, but it's not.


Amazinz wrote:It doesn't matter. The burden of proof is on Murphy and unless you just love conspiracy theories you have to admit this story is pretty shaky.


Agreed. I wouldn't even call it shaky though, it's laughable at best.

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:No it's not really shaky. The conditions exist and the source is credible.


Ian Kinsler could hit 100 home runs this year. He will get the at bats, and pitchers will pitch to him. MLB is an official organization and company, the games are televised, so it doesn't get more credible than that.

Will it happen? Of course not.

Just because something is possible, that doesn't mean it actually happened, or will. Huge difference in those two things.

Mookie4ever wrote:Seriously, what's the issue.

Some pampered law prof was delayed and got his panties in a bunch. So what?


Exactly. :-b Guess he needed a popularity boost, some controversy, or something (selling a book was mentioned, so maybe that's it). :-b

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:Notice I do not imply McCarthyism is here, only that signs of its birth are possible.


There are signs that a large meteor is going to crash into the Earth (20 year or so down the line, the article is posted here somewhere). Are we already preparing to evacuate the planet? So there are "signs", so what?

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:He was able to fly that day.


The real story would be if he wasn't allowed to fly at all and his name really being on the Do Not Fly list. Then we'd have an interesting story here, instead of some noteworthy guy getting delayed and making a fuss about it. :-b

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:"(a) we cannot find out exactly how it’s compiled; (b) we cannot find out who compiles it; and (c) the Homeland Security agency or department refuses to explain what criteria they use. They’ll also not tell people who is or who is not on it. So we have essentially a secret list, compiled in secret by secret agents using secret standards."


A) - If we knew how to avoid it, so would the terrorists. Duh.

B) - If we knew exactly who compiled it, then we could do our best to avoid those people, blackmail them, kill them, etc, and the terrorists would be able to as well. Duh.

C) - Basically the same as A, but you really come across as a paranoid freak wearing an aluminum foil hat here. I know you're not, or at least I don't think you are, but this is really messed up. :-b The list is secret so that terrorists who are not on the list don't fly into or out of the country while they can. I mean really, think about it. Say we figure out who some big terrorist is and then learn he was able to fly out of the country two weeks prior to that, even though we suspected him. How stupid would the government look? This way, if he wants to fly out of the country, he's got to gamble. That's at least some kind of deterrant, rather than him knowing he can just fly out whenever he pleases.

Unless of course you personally are in charge of national security for the entire country? If so, then please let me know as I'll be moving. Publishing how the list is compiled, who exactly compiles it, and what criteria they use would be one of the dumbest moves in the history of the world and I want no part of that. :-b

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:This administration has proven it needs baby sitting, I'm not advocating more than that.


I won't turn this personal, but I'd put my trust and life in the hands of the government, and even in the hands of some other Cafe members, over yours without hesitation. No offense, but you're really acting high and mighty and above the goverment here, when you've proven time and time again that you're way too far out on a limb and grasping for anything you can.

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:I think anyone will find my ideas quite American and quite prudent.


Actually no, it's not an "American" trait to distrust the government to the point of believing a story that makes zero sense and led to absolutly nothing substancial. The story is garbage since it cannot happen the way he said (barring one stupid employee of course) and he merely got delayed. Again, *Yawn*, what story? There is no story.

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:If one does not see the seed of a list deeming American's as terrorists without substantial evidence and based only on speech or protest against the current administration


You lack the "substancial evidence" to even prove that happens to begin with. Pot meet kettle? :-b

I mean prove it happened. Not some story that doesn't add up, and you cannot rewind the clock so that he didn't get to fly, so show me a credible story where someone was not allowed to fly solely due to speaking up against Bush and/or the government.

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:Squashing the idea of even debating such potential only encourages the feeling of overbearing government.


Debating about something as silly as this is fine, no one's really questioning that.

Believing something this absurd is a totally different thing though. :-b

Mookie4ever wrote:An overbearing silly Canadian like me needs these things pointed out for him.


This is all your fault. I know it is. Guess all the other mods and myself were slacking yesterday, and this is the price for us not pointing stuff out to you. :-[

:-b


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Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:31 pm

Madison wrote: ...


Greatest post ever I think. ;-D :-b
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Postby mak1277 » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:34 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:Who cares?

Let's assume that this secret list compiled by secret people exists. What practical effect has it had? A guy missed a flight.


It took 8 pages of the thread, but I finally found something I can fully agree with.
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