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Koufax's 1965 Season..Best ever in history by a pitcher?

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Postby Geek » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:47 pm

The one knock on Pedro is that he didn't log enough innings. Sure his K/9 ratios are incredible, but don't discount the ability of a guy to eat innings and preserve their team's bullpen.

For instance, take 1997 Roger Clemens:

34 games
264.0 IP
7.75 IP/start
2.05 ERA
292 K
1.03 WHIP
21 W

That's almost a full inning/start better than Pedro's 1998 season, where he set his career high in IP at 233.
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Postby Big Cat » Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:33 pm

IP isn't all that valuable in the fantasy realm when compared to Ks. That being said, I agree that Pedro's season was better fantasy-wise, but Koufax with 27 CG? That's outright ridiculous. I'd rather have a guy like that in real life.
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Postby thedude » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:43 pm

Big Cat wrote:IP isn't all that valuable in the fantasy realm when compared to Ks. That being said, I agree that Pedro's season was better fantasy-wise, but Koufax with 27 CG? That's outright ridiculous. I'd rather have a guy like that in real life.


Koufax retired 1 year later (after the 1966 season) with arms troubles. considence? :-?
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Postby Big Cat » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:59 pm

I wouldn't say it was a coincidence. Direct consequence for throwing so much is what it is.
In his 10 full seasons in the Majors he threw 135 CG, averaging over 13. Pedro only hit 13 once. I don't like CG as a stat in Fantasy Baseball, but in real life it is a pretty decent way to look at the quality of a pitcher.
The fact that he had virtually no dropoff of his ability is another testament to how great he was.
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Postby djack909 » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:22 pm

Been watching BB for 60+ years. Best I've seen Gibson and Pedro all others are a bit below them.
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Postby madmax391 » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:25 pm

If I had to win 1 game, Gibson, hands down. Only Curt Flood with misplays could beat him.
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Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:55 pm

Gibson's numbers fair surprisingly poorly in some ways. I can see taking the gamer, but don't tell me a hitter like Ruth would care about his inside chin music crap. He's just bean him while he got on the mound ;-)

Oh, my vote goes to Randy Johnson with the Astros. I mean heck, those extra IP a guy like Koufax threw don't matter right ;-)
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Postby The Kavorka » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:01 pm

thedude wrote:
itodd wrote:that guy who played for the Providence Greys in like 1889 or something, dude had nearly 50 wins and like 40 CGs and 300+ Ks...


Old Hoss Radburn was his name.


You can't use complete games, wins, or K's to compare pitchers across eras. It just isn't fair. When Radbourn was pitching he was on a two man rotation.

When Koufax and Gibson were pitching the mound had yet to be lowered. The best tool is ERA+ because it compares pitchers era to league average pitchers and even that is not great because the overall talent level has imporved over the years.


Here are the top 10 single season ERA+ of all-time:



Code: Select all
# Name (age) ERA+ Year
1. Tim Keefe+ (23) 294 1880
2. Pedro Martinez (28) 285 2000
3. Dutch Leonard* (22) 279 1914
4. Greg Maddux (28) 273 1994
5. Walter Johnson+ (25) 259 1913
t5. Greg Maddux (29) 259 1995
7. Bob Gibson+ (32) 258 1968
8. Mordecai Brown+ (29) 253 1906
9. Pedro Martinez (27) 245 1999
10. Walter Johnson+ (24) 240 1912


Time Keefe pitched before the mound was moved from 50 feet to 60 feet 6 inches.


;-D Cool post
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Postby Geek » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:48 pm

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:Gibson's numbers fair surprisingly poorly in some ways. I can see taking the gamer, but don't tell me a hitter like Ruth would care about his inside chin music crap. He's just bean him while he got on the mound ;-)

Oh, my vote goes to Randy Johnson with the Astros. I mean heck, those extra IP a guy like Koufax threw don't matter right ;-)


Ask the Astros today about the value of a guy who can go 9 innings!
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Postby citybirds27 » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:11 pm

Melo255 wrote:
pepperoncino wrote:no doubt, for three or four years there, pedro was the best ever. when you put it in the context of the era he played in, it's just absolutely sick.


100% correct. When you consider the era Pedro was pitching in and his stats vs other starters it's not even close. Pedro had the best couple of seasons I've ever seen.

It's funny too because Pedro could very well have won 27 games in '99 and '00. I remember the Sox would score runs for every pitcher but whenever Pedro would start they would become totally unable to hit. The Sox never seemed to hit for Pedro during his whole career. It must have cost him 30-40 wins overall.

Also have to mention that in 2002 if you take out his first start of the year where he gave up 7 runs in 3 innings he had a 1.97 era over every one of his other starts. As it is he had a 2.26 era for the season but really he was even more dominant than that.


Sorta like the Astros and Roger Clemens... they literally scored NO runs for him a lot of his games. But the difference is that they didn't score that much when he didn't play either. :-b
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