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Postby CheeseBeger » Thu May 10, 2007 10:57 am



LOL


I guess the link wasn't really self expanatory on what I wanted to touch on. It seems that the Nuremberg Defense (I was just following orders) seems like a complete justification of the individual Nazi members actions according to the Bible (Romans 13).


I mean look at this verse from Romans

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

According to the Bible, Nazi's who were told to burn and slaughter millions of Jews should have no moral dilemma with this if they are practising Christians. "Well the government authorities said to do it guess I have to."

Unless you think this is just God's master plan to get those darn Jews, this just confounds me...
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Postby Amazinz » Thu May 10, 2007 12:09 pm

CheeseBeger wrote:I mean look at this verse from Romans

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

According to the Bible, Nazi's who were told to burn and slaughter millions of Jews should have no moral dilemma with this if they are practising Christians. "Well the government authorities said to do it guess I have to."

Unless you think this is just God's master plan to get those darn Jews, this just confounds me...


That's not what it's saying. You need to look at the letter from Paul in context and among the other things he wrote. This is a letter from Paul to the Christians in Rome telling them that Christianity is not a means by which to overthrow Caesar. It doesn't mean to obey a government blindly but rather that disobeying a just government is an offense against God. ;-)
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Postby BGbootha » Thu May 10, 2007 12:11 pm

Amazinz wrote:
CheeseBeger wrote:I mean look at this verse from Romans

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

According to the Bible, Nazi's who were told to burn and slaughter millions of Jews should have no moral dilemma with this if they are practising Christians. "Well the government authorities said to do it guess I have to."

Unless you think this is just God's master plan to get those darn Jews, this just confounds me...


That's not what it's saying. You need to look at the letter from Paul in context and among the other things he wrote. This is a letter from Paul to the Christians in Rome telling them that Christianity is not a means by which to overthrow Caesar. It doesn't mean to obey a government blindly but rather that disobeying a just government is an offense against God. ;-)


So then how does one determine a 'just government' and a 'unjust government'?
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Postby Amazinz » Thu May 10, 2007 12:13 pm

BGbootha wrote:So then how does one determine a 'just government' and a 'unjust government'?

Jesus makes it pretty clear. ;-)
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Postby BGbootha » Thu May 10, 2007 12:18 pm

Amazinz wrote:
BGbootha wrote:So then how does one determine a 'just government' and a 'unjust government'?

Jesus makes it pretty clear. ;-)


Ok let me out this in context...

There is a big uproar round these parts regarding Lt. Watada (linkage below), he believes that our government is unjust and thus refused to deplow to iraq (I don't want to turn this into a war debate, more aiming towards the Nuremburg defense). How is one supposed to use the words of Jesus to determine who is just and who is unjust.

Basically there are millions of 'Christians' in the world, many of these serve Governments who fight each other on a regular basis. Who is following the just government and who isn't? How do we/Jesus know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada
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Postby Amazinz » Thu May 10, 2007 12:23 pm

Right. Not going down this path. I just wanted to point out that the statement Dobbs used in his article is quite misleading if you do not read all of the letters from Paul. Read Romans and make up your own mind.
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Postby Half Massed » Thu May 10, 2007 10:24 pm

I would imagine Jesus said something along the lines of a just government being one that doesn't go against the moral code God laid out in the Bible or some such thing. (I don't actually know what he said, but that would make sense.)

So a platform of murdering hordes of innocent Jews would hint at an unjust government, while being told to pay your taxes by a certain date or something wouldn't suggest an unjust government.

The problem with that is that it would lead to the slippery slope of strict interpretation of the Bible's moral code, or what the meaning behind it was, which would effectively leave the decision of the whole just/unjust business to the individual.

Of course, I could be making that whole thing up. O:-)
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Postby CheeseBeger » Thu May 10, 2007 11:17 pm

Amazinz wrote:
BGbootha wrote:So then how does one determine a 'just government' and a 'unjust government'?

Jesus makes it pretty clear. ;-)


Yeah, how can you say which government is just and which is unjust and not worth obeying? There really is no definate line, it is a slippery slope. For example abortion. Apparrantly it is against what the Bible says, but the US government allows it. Does that mean the US is now an unjust government? It seems like it is guesswork to me.
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Postby Amazinz » Thu May 10, 2007 11:36 pm

Sounds like you're making some assumptions. The line is clearly drawn as far as I am concerned. If you've read it and disagree than so be it.
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