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Adios, Omar.

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Postby Erboes » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:28 pm

Apologies were to both of you. Bad mood, brother.

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Postby Madison » Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:06 pm

Erboes wrote:Apologies were to both of you. Bad mood, brother.

Decaf is like kissing a @$^ with the bra on.


Lol. :-b
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:33 am

Erboes wrote:This is why I didn't want to get in an argument about this. There's no way to prove this within a shadow of a doubt.

I stand by my comment that players on artificial turf will get more chances than those playing on grass. Yes, the ball travels faster, but because of it you can play deeper; hence, you can get to more balls. On grass, you have to play much closer because the ball moves slower on average. This does not totally explain the difference in chances, but it does close the gap some. Why don't you look at the numbers for when Smith played in SD and Vizquel and Seattle? That should give you a clearer picture.



If you didn't want to argue it, then why make comments like Omar was a better hitter, and as good a fielder? There's no evidence either is true. You are right. It's not a shadow of doubt, it's a wide open door.

You claim Ozzie had groundball staffs in St. Louis? I could claim Ozzie had flyball staffs in SD, and Omar had groundball pitchers in Seattle. Of course in reality, we both know such claims, are that, only claims. The odds that in 15 years, Omar got less groundballs all the time would be infinite odds. I have never played ss on turf, but i know the faster the ball, the less reaction time a ss has to get to it. To play deeper on turf, you have to have a cannon arm. Not every ss can play deep.

Omar played 5 years in Seattle (turf), or 33% of his career. Ozzie played 4 years in SD (grass), for 21% of his career. So Ozzie played on turf 46% more then Omar, not 100%, like you make it sound.

In Omar's 5 years on turf, his range factor was 4.46, compared to his overall career range factor of 4.45. It appears Omar had the same range in Seattle, that he had in Cleveland.

In Ozzies 4 years in SD (grass), he had a 5.48 range factor, compared to his overall career 5.03 range factor. This means his range factor was much better in SD, it fell some in St. Louis.

3 out Ozzies top 6 putout years, came in SD. 3 out of 4 of Ozzies top assist years, came in SD.

Bill James in his abstract, page 596, states, as a rule, the differences between expected and actual assists by the ss are NOT HUGE.
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Postby Erboes » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:11 am

Yep, Hootie, I was completely wrong again. I got too caught up on Omar hitting for a higher average with more power than Ozzie. Silly me. I should have looked more closely at the inside-the-park-homers stat, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Smith was the better hitter. Of course, that has nothing to do with artificial turf. My mistake, You are right again as you always are.

And, damn, James is on your side? Geez, that guy is never wrong. I'm surprised you didn't bring up Shandler for your argument then I'll certainly be trumped and I would have to grovel for forgiveness.

You know, I was looking at these fielding chances too, and you are right, Smith leads head and shoulder in that stat, with an average of 3.3 chances per game and Omar at 2.89. Funny thing was, Ripken led Omar as well at 3.04 a game. All those years of the Orioles trying to move him to third too when he was probably the best fielding SS of the time as proved by his fielding chances. Who would have thunk it?

And I am sure there isn't one shortstop in the history of baseball that didn't have more fielding chances per game than Ozzie, right? I mean, hell, if there was then he'd automatically be the best fielding shortstop of all time and not Ozzie, no? So, again, your air-tight argument is foolproof. Ozzie is the best because Hootie and James say so!

Next time I won't look at stupid stats like average and homers when judging hitters. I am sincerely humbled and chastised.
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Postby Erboes » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:45 am

Look, Hootie, sarcasm aside, I got a little ticked with your contention that I'm an idiot because of my claim that Omar was a better hitter than Ozzie. If Omar has a better average with more power what other conclusion can I make? Sure, Smith had more steals than Vizquel, but that is at least partially because he was playing before the slide-step. Back then 100 steal seasons were common place and today if someone steals 50 it's cause for celebration. That is irrelevant anyway because I said Vizquel was a better "hitter", not baserunner, than Ozzie. I stick with that claim.

And to me fielding statistics are practically meaningless. You can throw statistics at me all day but the truth of the matter is if I can show you that Ripken was a better fielder because of the amount of assists than Omar, Belanger, Aparicio, etc. it makes that stat worthless. Well, in my mind at least it does.

And my original post was just to lament the apparent trade of one of my city's favorite all time players. Do you sit there and poke out things you don't agree with in obituaries? For crying-out-loud, man, lighten up.
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Postby trevisc » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:50 am

Wow! All this flack over a guy who probably will be injured all season!


Let's focus on the A-rod trade shall we?

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Postby mightyian5 » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:00 am

its great and all that youre defending omar, but this one should be let go. there will always be opinions as to which player is better, or more correctly, which stat more adequately defines a better player.

at least omars staying in cleveland, where be belongs.
theyre coming.....
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Postby Lofunzo » Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:01 pm

This Omar vs. Ozzie talk reminds me of a few years ago. I almost came to blows with someone because he thought that Rey Ordonez was the best fielding SS and I told him that Omar was much better but no one knows about him (due to playing in relative obscurity). I also said, and I still believe it to be true, that Ordonez was flashy and made the tough plays but he didn't make the routine plays as well.
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:47 pm

Erboes wrote:Look, Hootie, sarcasm aside, I got a little ticked with your contention that I'm an idiot because of my claim that Omar was a better hitter than Ozzie.
If Omar has a better average with more power what other conclusion can I make?


I never implied anything to you, it was to your statement. Sorry you took it personal. If Arlo or Omar had made the same statement, i would have countered the same. I look at what's said, not who said it.

Omar played in a better hitting era, in better hitting parks, (Jake-Kingdome), versus Ozzie in the (Murph-Busch). I presented their career ops+, which accounts for both the league average, and park adjusted. It was 87 to 84 Omar. It's a push at worst.

Omar hit 273, the league average was 270
Ozzie hit 262, the league average was 262

Omar hit +03 over league, Oz was even.

But we both know average is a bad way to judge a hitter.

Omar had a 340 oba to a league avg of 340
Ozzie had a 337 oba to a league avg of 328

Omar was even, Oz was +09 over league.


Omar slugged 356 to league average of 424
Ozzie slugged 328 to league average of 390

Omar was -68 under league, Oz was -62.

Thats why the career ops+ was 87 Oz, 84 Omar.
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:51 pm

Lofunzo wrote:This Omar vs. Ozzie talk reminds me of a few years ago. I almost came to blows with someone because he thought that Rey Ordonez was the best fielding SS and I told him that Omar was much better but no one knows about him (due to playing in relative obscurity). I also said, and I still believe it to be true, that Ordonez was flashy and made the tough plays but he didn't make the routine plays as well.


Ordonez is overrated. Omar was better. ESPN only shows the occasional great play. Thats why Rey has a rep.
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