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Postby Erboes » Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:34 pm

Assists are dependent on two things: range and chances. If you got ground ball pitchers like St. Louis had for most of those years you'll get more chances. With the exception of Nagy, the Indians had mostly hard throwing fly ball pitchers. Another factor was the artificial turf that Smith played on for most of this career. Fast, true, hops so you can play practically in the OF and still throw them out at first. Come on, Hootie, you're smarter than this. And Madison you sit there and "oh" and "ah" this nonsense?

Yikes, that was harsher than I intended. Please accept my apologies.
Last edited by Erboes on Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby chinch sacs » Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:50 pm

from the CLE team site:


12/16/2003 8:22 PM ET
Vizquel trade to Seattle nixed
By Jim Street / MLB.com



Slick-fielding shortstop Omar Vizquel played for the Mariners from 1989-93. (John Froschauer/AP)



The proposed trade that would return Omar Vizquel to the Mariners is dead.

The switch-hitting shortstop told MLB.com Tuesday evening that his surgically repaired right knee didn't pass the physical examination given by Mariners physicians and he remains employed by the Cleveland Indians.

"They called me about an hour ago and told me I didn't pass the test on my knee," Vizquel said from his Issaquah, Wash., home. "It was kind of a shock. I was really looking forward to coming back and playing for the Mariners."

The trade reportedly would have sent shortstop Carlos Guillen to the Indians, although officials from both organizations would not confirm the particulars of the deal, which was reported in the Seattle Times Tuesday morning.

Mariners general manager Bill Bavasi could not be reached for comment.

Vizquel said he went to Safeco Field on Tuesday for some agility drills and then was examined by Dr. Larry Pedegana, the Mariners medical director and team physician Dr. Mitch Storey.


guess you keep him Erboes...
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Postby Justise » Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:53 pm

I'm kind of glad this didn't happen. Still hoping the mariners will pool thier money for a legitamite cleanup hitter.
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Postby HOOTIE » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:04 pm

Erboes wrote:Assists are dependent on two things: range and chances. If you got ground ball pitchers like St. Louis had for most of those years you'll get more chances. With the exception of Nagy, the Indians had mostly hard throwing fly ball pitchers. Another factor was the artificial turf that Smith played on for most of this career. Fast, true, hops so you can play practically in the OF and still throw them out at first. Come on, Hootie, you're smarter than this. And Madison you sit there and "oh" and "ah" this nonsense?

Yikes, that was harsher than I intended. Please accept my apologies.


I knew that you would play the chance or turf card.

Lets talk turf. Yes turf gives more true hops. But surely you know average climbs on turf because the ball travels faster on it. This means infielders (Smith), had less reaction time, then grass infielders (Omar) would. Why, because grass slows groundballs.
Which grounder is easier to get too, those on a fast field (turf), or a slow field (grass)?

Chances. You have any proof that the Cards threw more groundballs? Smith played in SD too. Omar played in Seattle. So your theory is somehow on 2 teams, Omar in 15 years had, the bad luck to not get groundballs, like Smith did in 19 years with 2 teams? If we were talking 1 year, that argument might fly. But we are talking 15 and 19 years here. Btw, Colon 1.25 g/f, and Finley 1.34 g/f, where far from flyball pitchers.
Ozzie using a 162 season, had 94 more assists on average, over 19 years, then Omar did. 94 is alot. So show evidence that somehow Ozzie had more grounders hit to him, (at least 94 a year), for 19 years?
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Postby Greenrider » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:07 pm

Erboes wrote:Assists are dependent on two things: range and chances. If you got ground ball pitchers like St. Louis had for most of those years you'll get more chances. With the exception of Nagy, the Indians had mostly hard throwing fly ball pitchers. Another factor was the artificial turf that Smith played on for most of this career. Fast, true, hops so you can play practically in the OF and still throw them out at first. Come on, Hootie, you're smarter than this. And Madison you sit there and "oh" and "ah" this nonsense?

Yikes, that was harsher than I intended. Please accept my apologies.


You made a homer post, and got called on it - don't pout. The fact that Vizquel was once mentioned in the same breath as Jeter, Nomar, and A-Rod is laughable.

Hootie was dead-on with his analysis: if you think Gold Gloves speak louder than assists, you are entitled to your opinion, but the sabermetric world has argued very convincingly that Vizquel's glove is overrated.

Seattle should be thanking their lucky stars that they were saved from this outright blunder of a trade.
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Postby BigLebowski » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:11 pm

Quick, I just dropped a box of matches on the floor...how many are there Hootie...quickly!


You're like Rainman dude, numbers flying out like crazy. And as usual, you are right. ;-D
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Postby wrveres » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:19 am

Umm not so fsat there erbos
Omar Vizquel - SS - Cleveland Indians Dec 16

Omar Vizquel failed his physical today, likely nullifying his trade to the Mariners.
Vizquel, who had knee surgery in September, was surprised by the decision, as he believed he performed well during agility drills. Maybe the Mariners simply had second thoughts about the deal. Considering that they might not have been upgrading at all at shortstop, it's probably good news for Seattle that the deal is off
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Postby DieHardCubbie » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:39 am

Looks like a loss for both sides...... :-/
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Postby Erboes » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:59 am

Dude Hootie,

This is why I didn't want to get in an argument about this. There's no way to prove this within a shadow of a doubt.

I stand by my comment that players on artificial turf will get more chances than those playing on grass. Yes, the ball travels faster, but because of it you can play deeper; hence, you can get to more balls. On grass, you have to play much closer because the ball moves slower on average. This does not totally explain the difference in chances, but it does close the gap some. Why don't you look at the numbers for when Smith played in SD and Vizquel and Seattle? That should give you a clearer picture.

I still think the biggest reason is what type of pitching staff you have. Finley didn't pitch long enough in Cleveland and Colon didn't used to be a ground ball pitcher. Even their bullpen was almost completely made up of hard throwing fly ball pitchers. I'm going on memory here, but wasn't Ripken usually at the top of fielding chances every year? If true, I'll tell you that it wasn't because he had great range, but that staff always had ground ball pitchers, much like the Cardinals.

To me, there's no stat that can tell you if a guy was a great fielder. It's much like offensive linemen getting elected into the hall of fame. It's all on reputation, but there's no stats to help you decide whether the reputation was warranted. Statistics are great, but there's some scenarios where they are useless. I think this is one of those cases.
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Postby Madison » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:18 pm

Erboes wrote:And Madison you sit there and "oh" and "ah" this nonsense?

Yikes, that was harsher than I intended. Please accept my apologies.


? :-?

How did I "oh" and "ah"? I simply agreed with Hootie's point:

Madison wrote:Nice post Hootie.

I do believe that proves the point.


That was my whole post. I didn't drop to my knees and say we should worship the numbers, but I do believe that they prove the point here.

If the apology was to me, then it's cool. :-) If not, then decaf might be the way to go. ;-) Lol. :-D
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