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So is this the end for Chris Shelton

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Postby tgalv » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:19 pm

the problem is his lack of power at a "power" position.
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Postby Dan Charette » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:52 pm

He's got plenty of power. I know he fizzled out fast last year, but he had an awesome start .
All it would take is an injury to Casey for Shelton to get another chance. He probably couldn't make the adjustments needed after the pitchers figured him out. I think he'll get another chance at some point.
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Postby MotorCityKitties » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:24 pm

Dan Charette wrote:He's got plenty of power. I know he fizzled out fast last year, but he had an awesome start .
All it would take is an injury to Casey for Shelton to get another chance. He probably couldn't make the adjustments needed after the pitchers figured him out. I think he'll get another chance at some point.


Yeah I agree. He's only getting sent down because he has minor league option and Thames doesn't. An injury to Maggs/Casey/Monroe/Sheffield and he will be back with the club as the backup 1B/DH. Detroit hasn't given up on him, it just makes more sense to send him to Toledo than to release Thames.
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Postby Niffoc4 » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:44 pm

mak1277 wrote:
PlayingWithFire wrote:
mak1277 wrote:So now the tally is up to two organizations that have essentially given up on Chris Shelton. And people still think he's getting a raw deal? Is it possible that the people who have jobs that require them to evaluate talent know more than we do?

Do you think Jim Leyland doesn't want to win? If Shelton were significantly better than Casey, he'd be playing. If he were really a productive major league hitter, don't you think he'd at least be on the major league roster?


He's been hitting no?

And this is hardly the first time a deserving candidate don't get any playing time. Dominik Hasek spend 3 seasons as a backup before becoming one of the best goalie ever.


Did two teams pass on Hasek though? I mean, it's not just Detroit. Pittsburgh let Shelton go for nothing.

I'm not saying he's worthless, I'm just saying I put more faith in the fact that two organizations don't think he's worthy of a job than I do in his hitting stats in a vacuum.
I don't know anything about hockey either, but there are plenty of baseball examples... what about Jason Bay? The Mets and Padres easily gave up on him, and the Bucs only got him because the Padres wouldn't give up Xavier Nady. Now how did that turn out again?
Some other guys who have been given up on:
C. Carpenter
Emil Brown (not a star, but a solid offensive starter)
Reggie Sanders (now he really is done, but he kept going for a long time)
E. Loaiza
Todd Jones
Matt Diaz
Bobby Abreu (was once traded for Kevin Stocker!)
Michael Young

Teams give up on lots of players, and even the best organizations are wrong sometimes... Shelton has hit well in his two seasons when given the opportunity. I think he'll hit again this year with the Tigers once injuries strike.
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Postby PlayingWithFire » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:58 pm

the ultimate example is Curt Schilling, he was traded (gasp...) for Jason Grimsley
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Postby mak1277 » Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:02 pm

There's a big difference between a guy getting traded and a guy being unprotected in the Rule 5 draft or being banished to the minors.

Bay wasn't "given up on" by anyone. Sure he was traded, but Brian Giles was a star before that trade. I think everyone involved realized that Bay was going to be a productive major leaguer.
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Postby thedude » Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:05 pm

Two of the most lopsided trades in Baseball history

Pedro Martinez for Delino Deshields
Frank Robinson (who had already won an MVP and was called "washed up" at the age of 30) for Milt Pappas, Jack Baldschun, and Dick Simpson.
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Postby Niffoc4 » Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:13 pm

mak1277 wrote:There's a big difference between a guy getting traded and a guy being unprotected in the Rule 5 draft or being banished to the minors.

Bay wasn't "given up on" by anyone. Sure he was traded, but Brian Giles was a star before that trade. I think everyone involved realized that Bay was going to be a productive major leaguer.
Before that the Expos traded him and Jimmy Serrano for.... Lou Collier. Then the Mets traded him, another minor leaguer and Bobby Jones for some MR help.
Abreu was taken in the expansion draft by the D-rays before they dealt him for Stocker.
Emil Brown was another guy who I mentioned who was certainly given up on.
Same with Loaiza and Jones.
Your point about not being given up on if they are traded has some merit, but you have to look at who they're dealt for to see if they are trading value for value, or just filling positions. I'm pretty sure the Expos trading Bay and Serrano for Lou Collier was a case of the Mets taking the best offer that they could get... not them believing in Bay.
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Postby mak1277 » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:11 am

Niffoc4 wrote:
mak1277 wrote:There's a big difference between a guy getting traded and a guy being unprotected in the Rule 5 draft or being banished to the minors.

Bay wasn't "given up on" by anyone. Sure he was traded, but Brian Giles was a star before that trade. I think everyone involved realized that Bay was going to be a productive major leaguer.
Before that the Expos traded him and Jimmy Serrano for.... Lou Collier. Then the Mets traded him, another minor leaguer and Bobby Jones for some MR help.
Abreu was taken in the expansion draft by the D-rays before they dealt him for Stocker.
Emil Brown was another guy who I mentioned who was certainly given up on.
Same with Loaiza and Jones.
Your point about not being given up on if they are traded has some merit, but you have to look at who they're dealt for to see if they are trading value for value, or just filling positions. I'm pretty sure the Expos trading Bay and Serrano for Lou Collier was a case of the Mets taking the best offer that they could get... not them believing in Bay.


I understand what you're saying, but the biggest difference is that Bay hadn't logged any time in the major leagues when he was being traded by the Mets. Shelton has. He's had two partial major league seasons by which to be evaluated.

It's one thing to incorrectly evaluate someone that has never faced big league pitching...it's quite another to have 500 at-bats worth of evidence and still get it wrong.

Plus, Bay was only drafted one year before Shelton was. So he was "given up on" by the Mets only 2 years after he was drafted...not 6 years later like we're talking about with Shelton.

Like I said before, I'm not saying Shelton can't be productive. I'm just saying that Bay's probably not the best parallel to be drawn.
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Postby Niffoc4 » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:33 am

That makes sense... Bay may not be the best comparison, given his relative inexperience at the time, but I still think that Shelton can be productive (not a star)... luckily you don't really disagree, so I think we're done ;-D
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