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Add the BoSox to the teams I Respect...(As a Yankee fan)

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Add the BoSox to the teams I Respect...(As a Yankee fan)

Postby Kwaziwampo » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:51 am

In disagreement with the below post so much I just had to start a new thread. Now I'm a life long Yankee fan. Grew up two blocks from the stadium, and when I wasn't there after school, I was watching them on TV. My dad raised me on them...162 games a year through the late 70's/early 80's.

Now, I hate the Red Sox. I always have hated the Red Sox, and always will hate the Red Sox. Sox fans are brought up with the same hatred, but somewhere deap down there's a mutual respect, us to them as baseball fans. When you get past Steinbrenner, and 1918, there is empathy as a Yankee fan. The two franchises are forever intertwinned. What fun would it be to be a Yankee fan if the Red Sox weren't there? Got to get up for that big Yankee/Oriole rivalry...don't think so.

Maybe St. Louis, but I can't think of a more knowlegable fan then a Red Sox fan. I suppose 84 years of pain will do that to someone. You can't look at the flags saying world champ, so you look at Yaz's numbers. Sox fans are diehards, as are Yankees fans...

That brings me to my point. Sox fan deserves what Epstein is doing. We all know that the Sox will have to take apart whatever they put together this year. There is no next year, this is it. Management recognizes it, and so do the fans.

The ironic thing is this is GOOD for baseball. Now Kansas City, and Milwaukee might be horrible this year, but they've had their championships. The Sox haven't. People yell about parity. You want parity, go watch the NFL. Parity sucks. Instead of the Packers/Steelers/9'ers/Cowboys dynasties, now we have...quick who won the Super Bowl last year. Who won the year before?

It doesn't change the fact that the Marlins are world champs. It doesn't change the years Minnesota and Oakland have had. I can tell you right now, as most would agree the Yankees have been doing the wrong thing until Vasquez. Nick Johnson may or may not be another Lowellesque mistake. Time will tell.

The money doesn't matter. Ask the Mets. Every year. Year after year. It's the moves of competent baseball managment, something the sox haven't had since...damn...I don't know. I respect the hell out of what Epstien is doing. He's doing a better job then George by far.

So I hope the get A-Rod. I hope they get Foulke. I hope they go after someone else after that too. I hope their payroll is $200 million just like the Yankees. I hope the ALCS is as great as this past years. We know there will be a better storyline this year already. But you know...I could be wrong. Perhaps there would be more drama, and history when the White Sox play the Mariners. Before you turn that notion down...ask yourself when the last time the White Sox won a world series...and there enlies the truest reason why what the Red Sox are doing is good for baseball. Baseball fans care about the Red Sox. People know about the curse. People know about the 26 championships in the interm. A case (weak albiet) could be made the White Sox have a curse, but will America care when the White Sox win the series, even though it's been longer then the Red Sox? Don't think so.

It's a game of history. The Red Sox are going to make it one way or another in 2004.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:54 am

You make some great points. I would also like to 2nd your point that it is good when the Sox are good. I hate the Mets. I also hate it when they suck. It's no fun when they suck. I wish that the Mets and Sox were good so we can see what happens. If they were all good, it would be very exciting.

The only thing that I disagree with is giving the credit to Epstein. He is a puppet of many. What they are doing is good. ;-D
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Postby wrveres » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:55 am

great post Kwaziwampo ;-D

so what happens to Theo when the Sox miss the playoffs ?
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Postby Greenrider » Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:19 am

wrveres wrote:great post Kwaziwampo ;-D

so what happens to Theo when the Sox miss the playoffs ?


win or lose, I think most Sox fans recognize that Theo will always be better than Jim "twilight" Duquette, if only because he seems to be a genuinely earnest and intelligent guy, free of the arrogance one might expect from someone in his position at such a young age.

I like the feeling I get from having a guy like Theo run the team - he seems like the kind of person who would be much more at home on Fantasy Cafe than in a room full of tobacco-chewing good ol' boys who only have a job because they parlayed a 30 game stint as .230 utility infielders into lifelong jobs as mediocre scouts and managers.

to be sure, he will fail someday soon, and probably in a spectacular way - not because he isn't talented, but because the magnitude of what he and the ownership are doing (signing Schilling, trying to waive Manny, the possible A-Rod deal, etc.) opens them up for enormous losses as well as enormous victories. I just hope that when the first big loss hits (i.e. if Schilling can't pitch past 38, if Freddy Sanchez turns out to be a huge star, whatever), that Sox fans will keep in mind that this is the price that comes with the territory of having bold and aggressive management from one of the sharper young minds in the business.
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Postby DieHardCubbie » Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:34 am

Great post Kwaziwampo..... ;-D
[b]Useless Trivia of the day[/b]

England's Worcester Canoe Club set the world record for paddling a hand-propelled bathtub. The 25 man team covered a distance of 55 miles, 425 yards in 24 hours on September 28 and 29, 1979.
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Postby wrveres » Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:38 am

Greenrider wrote: I like the feeling I get from having a guy like Theo run the team - he seems like the kind of person who would be much more at home on Fantasy Cafe than in a room full of tobacco-chewing good ol' boys who only have a job because they parlayed a 30 game stint as .230 utility infielders into lifelong jobs as mediocre scouts and managers.


I agree with ya for the most part, but there is a couple of flaw IMO .

Theo is running this thing like a 'Fantasy GM' game you would buy for your computer, and he just saved 2 million on a manger. In a sense he is trying to run this, like fantasy baseball, IMO.
Francona has to guide this ship through 162 games, deal with the pressure from the media, the fans, Manny, Pedro you name it ..Not to mention the 'Phone Call' from up top ....
Is Curt a good Trade sure, But Francona never had a .500 record before . ... even with Curt.

As for the fans forgiving Theo when and if they don't make it ... I remind you these are the same fans that turned on their beloved 'Roger' when their own management balked .. ooops, come to think of it, you may be right, they'll take it out on a player instead ... my guess Curt will make them forget Pedro real quick. Next offseason, it will be 'Don't resign that Bum' !!!
oh and .... I already look forwad to the 'Nomar sucks' posts, those are sure to come next season too. :-)
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Postby Greenrider » Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:20 am

wrveres wrote:my guess Curt will make them forget Pedro real quick. Next offseason, it will be 'Don't resign that Bum' !!!
oh and .... I already look forwad to the 'Nomar sucks' posts, those are sure to come next season too. :-)


I think you may be going a bit harsh on Boston fans - these are not Philly fans we are talking about here. :-)

We almost never turn on our players - Roger was an exception, and Simmons has a great column on why it was so: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/010531.html. When beloved Boston athletes leave for other teams, they are generally given warm welcomes upon their return - see Mo Vaughn, Ray Bourque, Larry Bird (as coach), and I am positive that Nomar will be no different. Even Roger got a standing O in his last regular season start. Boston fans value effort above all, which is why Nomar will always get a warm welcome back, and Manny will always be lustily booed if the two leave the team. Pedro...well, Pedro is a complicated guy, and I know you don't like him very much, but most Sox fans wouldn't even dream of calling his competitive drive into question, no matter how many times he shows up late for spring training.

I agree with you that going with Francona is a little bit puzzling, but they seem to think he's the next Joe Torre - a guy whose personability and talent will shine as soon as he is placed on a team built to win. Whether they are right or not remains to be seen, but it's worth a try - I still say a baseball manager is the least important coach in the four major sports, so I'm not too concerned about it.

As for Theo running it like 'Fantasy GM', we'll have to see - his tenure has certainly had a fantasy feel to it, with every roster possibility explored, no matter how major the upheaval, but there's no way to know if that's truly a bad thing until we can look back with a few years' hindsight on the long-term effects of what he's doing. My hope, based on what I've seen so far, is that he'll turn out to be Billy Beane with a bigger pocketbook. He certainly seems to have the "{Nope can't say that'} A" trades down pat :-)



{edit} sorry...DHC
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Postby Greenrider » Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:34 am

Greenrider wrote:He certainly seems to have the "{Nope can't say that'} A" trades down pat :-)



{edit} sorry...DHC


lol...sorry about that - I was quoting a reputable book on the NY Times bestseller list, though! :-b
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Postby wrveres » Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:39 am

Greenrider wrote: I think you may be going a bit harsh on Boston fans - these are not Philly fans we are talking about here. :-)

You are probably right, but as a group they are the most outspoken or passionate, what ever you want to call it, of all baseball fans. So by default it makes them the easiest to pick on. :-)
Funny thing is, I have always pulled for the Sox in the postseason. So when Theo left here, I was stoked for them. But this version of "post season '03 Sox" soured me real quick, and I have probably extended my hangover just a little to long. Sorry all

Greenrider wrote:
My hope, based on what I've seen so far, is that he'll turn out to be Billy Beane with a bigger pocketbook.

Then they may never win a playoff series again !!! 8-o
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Postby Greenrider » Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:44 am

wrveres wrote:
Greenrider wrote:
My hope, based on what I've seen so far, is that he'll turn out to be Billy Beane with a bigger pocketbook.

Then they may never win a playoff series again !!! 8-o


A deft jab at both parties, but let's not forget that it was Billy himself (in perhaps the single most hypocritical moment of his life), who said that he could have beaten the Sox if he only had more money.

Give us $50 million more and I promise we won't blow a 2-0 lead.
-Billy Beane
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