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Postby Arlo » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:06 pm

I agree that we should try to keep these discussions free of antagonism.

As barren as the Red Sox? While all minor league rankings are highly subjective (I'm not so sure I'd agree that Anaheim is #1, for instance), I think we can all probably agree that Boston's minor league system is pretty much middle of the road. Superlative? No. Barren? No.

And bluster? Pretty much the only talk about Boston's prospects has centered on Youkilis, and much of that hasn't been because he's a tremendous prospect, but because he's a very interesting prospect. I think most fantasy folks would agree.

Anyway, getting back to the original question, I think New york still has minor leaguers that could be used in deals, even at the AAA level, if that's the road they choose to take. Dangle a package of Rik Currier and Colter Bean, for instance, and I could see several teams showing interest...
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Postby timkell » Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:36 pm

I liked when they refused to include Fossum in any deal for Colon last season. I really thought they'd become one of the best systems in the league with that mentality along with the money they have, but I guess it was just lip service. If it seems I'm ripping these organizations out of spite I assure you I am not. I just don't like this type of organization buiding. I think it's counter-productive in the long run.


I disagree completely.

This is what teams do. Every year, you evaluate whether you have a chance to win it all. If you do, you go for it. Who cares about Fossum when you can get Schilling, after missing the World Series by one game?

The Yanks built an incredible farm system that got them going by 1996. After that, George has traded young guys when needed and got free agents when needed, all because every year, the Yanks are one of the best teams in baseball. Sure, it may all collapse in three years, but would I trade any of the World Series losses or Championships to have Brandon Claussen or any of the other young guys they traded away on the team? When you're this close to a title, if a guy can't help you win it next year, he's expendable.

You worry about rebuilding when it's rebuilding time. You worry about winning when it's winning time.

I agree you need to be smart about giving up your top prospects, but if you can get Schilling, you get Schilling.
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Postby MikeeDee » Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:38 pm

See, I'm no Yankee-hater!!!! I agree with Timkell
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Postby DK » Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:44 pm

MikeeDee wrote:See, I'm no Yankee-hater!!!! I agree with Timkell


8-o And you're a Sox fan? :D

Hey, I'm a mets fan, and a yankee hater. it's a natural thing, you see. :-b
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Postby Transmogrifier » Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:09 pm

HOOTIE wrote:I thought the Colon non deal was a bad move. Hillenbrand has a bad oba, never walks, Fossum i have never cared for. Colon/Pedro would have been a great 1-2 in postseason.


I should point out that it wasn't simply Fossum and Hillenbrand for Colon. More was in that deal.
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Postby joshheines » Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:43 pm

Arlo wrote:While all minor league rankings are highly subjective (I'm not so sure I'd agree that Anaheim is #1, for instance), I think we can all probably agree that Boston's minor league system is pretty much middle of the road.


How can you disagree with Anaheim not being #1? Casey Kotchman, Dallas McPherson and Jeff Mathis alone make it #1. Then you throw in the fact that they have some young fireballers and it's almost clear. Other contenders for top five would be the Phillies (Hamels, Floyd, Utley), Mets (Kazmir, Milledge, Huber, Wright), Royals (Greinke). Boston's minor league system is slightly lower than middle of the road. They are probably in the 20-23 range.
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Postby Guest » Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:50 pm

Yankees cupboard in the minors is almost bare. Boston isn't that bad. The Mets have some nice prospects coming up including a few 3b, c, and pitching prospects. Maybe Diaz if he keeps hitting tho his weight and average defense is a concern. The Mets lack OF prospects. Maybe Milledge, and doubtfully Duncan tho several people think he can do well. He seems to have a Gold Glove and a bronze bat
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Postby HOOTIE » Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:40 am

Arlo wrote:
While all minor league rankings are highly subjective (I'm not so sure I'd agree that Anaheim is #1, for instance),


The ranking, was only a ranking taking the top 20 prospects in each league, and counting him for a teams total. It's not accurate, evaluting it that way, because a #1 prospect in the PCL is weighted the same as 20th in Rookie League. It's merely a gauge to show how each team fares as far as each leagues top 20.

ARLO What system would you put 1?

I know Cleveland is a popular choice and might be, but Anaheim has to be close.
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Postby ramble2 » Fri Dec 05, 2003 3:34 am

timkell wrote:
I liked when they refused to include Fossum in any deal for Colon last season. I really thought they'd become one of the best systems in the league with that mentality along with the money they have, but I guess it was just lip service. If it seems I'm ripping these organizations out of spite I assure you I am not. I just don't like this type of organization buiding. I think it's counter-productive in the long run.


I disagree completely.

This is what teams do. Every year, you evaluate whether you have a chance to win it all. If you do, you go for it. Who cares about Fossum when you can get Schilling, after missing the World Series by one game?

The Yanks built an incredible farm system that got them going by 1996. After that, George has traded young guys when needed and got free agents when needed, all because every year, the Yanks are one of the best teams in baseball. Sure, it may all collapse in three years, but would I trade any of the World Series losses or Championships to have Brandon Claussen or any of the other young guys they traded away on the team? When you're this close to a title, if a guy can't help you win it next year, he's expendable.

You worry about rebuilding when it's rebuilding time. You worry about winning when it's winning time.

I agree you need to be smart about giving up your top prospects, but if you can get Schilling, you get Schilling.


Yea, this sounds about right. I'm not a huge Fossum or Lyon fan, either. There are times to develop the farm system, and times to go for it. You can also do both at the same time. Focus on developing your farm system so that you've got MLB ready players in about 3-4 years by developing players at the lower levels, while trading the AAA players that aren't going to be able to contribute on a championship team. Also, I think that something that gets lost in these debates is that developing young talent isn't simply about getting players for your MLB team. Sometimes it's about building up stock in players that can be traded for other talent that better suits your squad.

Theo's only been there a little over a year now. He's refused to trade away Youklis, and he's been a vast improvement over Duquette. Let's see what the Red Sox system looks like after Theo's had a few drafts under his belt before we start passing judgement.
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Postby ramble2 » Fri Dec 05, 2003 3:59 am

This thread also got me thinking about Doyle Alexander.

I remember when I was in junior high school back in 1987. The Tigers were chasing the Blue Jays for the AL East. It came down to the end of the season, when the Tigers and Blue Jays played a couple of series against each other. The Tigers beat up the Jays in those series, and came back from something like 3 games back to win the division by 2 games.

They ended up losing to the Twins in the playoffs (Darrell Evans got picked off of 3rd to end the series, if I remember correctly), but it was one of my favorite seasons. In fact, the only time that I ever skipped school was that fall, so that I could watch the Tigers/Blue Jays series at the end of the regular season. (Okay, I did skip school again my senior year because a cute girl asked me to, but we ran into the school superintendent while wearing our letter jackets - D'OH!)

Why is this relevant? The Tigers traded John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander that year. They needed an extra arm to compete with the Jays. Alexander was awesome for the Tigers. He went 9-0 in 11 starts, with a 1.53 ERA and 1.00 WHIP. If not for him, the Tigers would have ended up in 2nd.

Despite the avatar, the Tigers are my favorite team. Would I like them to have Smoltz on their roster? Of course. Would I trade that for that 1987 season? No way. It was one of the most exciting seasons for me as a fan, and I'm sure that the crappy Tiger management would have managed to f-up Smoltz somehow anyways.

Are the Tigers horrible today because of that trade? Nope. They are horrible today because of some of the worst management in the history of baseball (thank you, Randy Smith) and a complete and utter lack of respect for the fans. When I moved west, and worked 1 mile from the A's Coliseum, I got to see what a ballclub that respected its fans was like. (Contrary to popular belief, the A's do respect their fans.) Hence the avatar.

Contrast that to the sell-off of Roberto Hernandez, Danny Darwin and Wilson Alvarez by the White Sox years ago. The Sox got some great young talent (e.g, Foulke), but they threw up the white flag in a division race. The Giants gave up a lot of minor leaguers, but won the division that year. The White Sox finished 6 games back. 6! Which moves do you think better helped develop and galvanize the fan base? San Fran and Detroit, or Chicago's?
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