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Postby KPucks » Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:02 pm

DK wrote: Madison, as he has said hundreds of times, believes Loaiza will have 12 wins and a 4+ ERA. Ask him if you want to.


Are you sure? I could have sworn Madison loved Loaiza and his potential for next yeear. :-D
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Postby DK » Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:03 pm

KPucks wrote:
DK wrote: Madison, as he has said hundreds of times, believes Loaiza will have 12 wins and a 4+ ERA. Ask him if you want to.


Are you sure? I could have sworn Madison loved Loaiza and his potential for next yeear. :-D


Lol. :D and wrveres is sure Adam Dunn will bat .400 with 60 HR and 140 RBI next year. :-b
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Postby chefref22 » Sat Dec 06, 2003 11:48 pm

i didn't ask him what kind of numbers he was going to put up.i asked him where he would rank him among SP's.2 different things.thanks anyways. :-P
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Postby blankman » Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:08 am

chefref22 wrote:i didn't ask him what kind of numbers he was going to put up.i asked him where he would rank him among SP's.2 different things.thanks anyways. :-P


There's really no point in ranking Loaiza at all. Do you know why?

Because once it gets to the point when you should even think about taking him, he'll be long gone. In other words, say you rank him 15th or 10th; by the time you go through your previous 14 or 9, he'll have been taken, most likely around the time when your 2, 3 or 4 is taken.

So, in essence, don't bother ranking him and just forget that he exists. At least thats what I'm doing ;-)
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Postby Madison » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:53 am

blankman wrote:
chefref22 wrote:i didn't ask him what kind of numbers he was going to put up.i asked him where he would rank him among SP's.2 different things.thanks anyways. :-P


There's really no point in ranking Loaiza at all. Do you know why?

Because once it gets to the point when you should even think about taking him, he'll be long gone. In other words, say you rank him 15th or 10th; by the time you go through your previous 14 or 9, he'll have been taken, most likely around the time when your 2, 3 or 4 is taken.

So, in essence, don't bother ranking him and just forget that he exists. At least thats what I'm doing ;-)


That's a good point made by Blankman. ;-D He will be long gone before you will take him.

As to my official ranking for Loaiza, I wish I could tell you, but I don't rank that far down. I only rank around 100 starters and he's not anywhere close to making my list. Officially, he's on my "do not draft" list for next year. I know that doesn't answer your question, and I'm sorry for that, but the best thing I can do is to suggest that he even exists. The guy you saw in April-August was not Loaiza. The guy who showed up in Sept. was him.
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Postby LBJackal » Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:12 am

Madison wrote:
blankman wrote:
chefref22 wrote:i didn't ask him what kind of numbers he was going to put up.i asked him where he would rank him among SP's.2 different things.thanks anyways. :-P


There's really no point in ranking Loaiza at all. Do you know why?

Because once it gets to the point when you should even think about taking him, he'll be long gone. In other words, say you rank him 15th or 10th; by the time you go through your previous 14 or 9, he'll have been taken, most likely around the time when your 2, 3 or 4 is taken.

So, in essence, don't bother ranking him and just forget that he exists. At least thats what I'm doing ;-)


That's a good point made by Blankman. ;-D He will be long gone before you will take him.

As to my official ranking for Loaiza, I wish I could tell you, but I don't rank that far down. I only rank around 100 starters and he's not anywhere close to making my list. Officially, he's on my "do not draft" list for next year. I know that doesn't answer your question, and I'm sorry for that, but the best thing I can do is to suggest that he even exists. The guy you saw in April-August was not Loaiza. The guy who showed up in Sept. was him.


Totally Agree ;-D

Definately Don't :-t

He'll be a disappointment to those who draft him as a top 5 pitcher, I'll admit that. But he will most certainly be in the top 100. I think you're over-exaggerating to prove a point - which is that you despise Loaiza as a player. Don't let the fact that you won't draft him discourage others who might see him as an option after sure-thing SP's are gone. IMO, he is about the 30th best SP. If you can get him that far in the draft (which you won't be able to unless the other 11 guys have read Mad's posts :-) ) then take him. Otherwise, let somebody take him too early.
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Postby Madison » Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:29 am

LBJackal wrote:you despise Loaiza as a player. Don't let the fact that you won't draft him discourage others who might see him as an option after sure-thing SP's are gone. IMO, he is about the 30th best SP. If you can get him that far in the draft (which you won't be able to unless the other 11 guys have read Mad's posts :-) ) then take him. Otherwise, let somebody take him too early.


I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I've never said that I "despise" Loaiza. I've never given a personal opinion about the man off the field or what I think of him as a person, so don't put words in my mouth.

I've given the numbers to show the less informed why he won't be a viable fantasy option next year. So far, all you've given them is a "cutter" and part of a fluke season.

If you want to do some research and try to prove me wrong, I'm all for it. I'll be happy to debate the issue back and forth with you if you can actually make a decent argument as to why he should be on someone's fantasy team next year.

I thought our debate was over. Agree to disagree type of thing. Like I said, make your case all you want, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth.
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Postby LBJackal » Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:55 am

Madison wrote:
LBJackal wrote:you despise Loaiza as a player. Don't let the fact that you won't draft him discourage others who might see him as an option after sure-thing SP's are gone. IMO, he is about the 30th best SP. If you can get him that far in the draft (which you won't be able to unless the other 11 guys have read Mad's posts :-) ) then take him. Otherwise, let somebody take him too early.


I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I've never said that I "despise" Loaiza. I've never given a personal opinion about the man off the field or what I think of him as a person, so don't put words in my mouth.

I've given the numbers to show the less informed why he won't be a viable fantasy option next year. So far, all you've given them is a "cutter" and part of a fluke season.

If you want to do some research and try to prove me wrong, I'm all for it. I'll be happy to debate the issue back and forth with you if you can actually make a decent argument as to why he should be on someone's fantasy team next year.

I thought our debate was over. Agree to disagree type of thing. Like I said, make your case all you want, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth.


I said "you despise Loaiza as a player" and you have implied throughout this entire thread that you do. I didn't say you said it explicitly, but you might has well have. I didn't put any words in your mouth.

Your evidence is a bunch of games he played over a year ago...my evidence is the entire previous season.

I'll break it down chronologically:

- He had 8 bad seasons, the 6 most recent in hitters parks, and the three most recent in a division with the Yankees and Red Sox

- He signs with the White Sox, who share a division with Detroit

- He learns a new pitch and consequently averages 8.2 K/9 IP, compared to 5.2 K/9 IP the previous season.

- He wins 21 games with a 2.90 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, and leads the league in K's

Do you know why he did so well last year? There must have something that made him so much better. If you don't even know what it is, then how can you be so sure it still isn't there? I don't think that your evidence is any more credible than mine, and you think that an entire season can be a fluke. So lets just agree to disagree.
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Postby Madison » Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:33 am

LBJackal wrote:I said "you despise Loaiza as a player" and you have implied throughout this entire thread that you do. I didn't say you said it explicitly, but you might has well have. I didn't put any words in your mouth.


How have I implied that? Because I think he highly overachieved and won't be able to come close to that again? Sorry if you got mislead, but Loaiza is just another player on the field to me. Nothing personal at all with Loaiza, players overachieve every year. It just helps to know which guys most likely won't repeat and why. This is the first time that anyone has accused me of "dispising" a player. Just a strong word. "Non believer" would not have been as offending. ;-)

If you notice I've said on more than one occasion that Loaiza most likely would put up his second best season in the majors next year. A 4.00 era with 12 wins would be considered his second best season. Wow, I must really despise him huh? Sorry if that seems sarcastic, but it seems like it's getting overlooked in all of this. If I truely "dispised" him, then wouldn't I be saying that his era would return to the 5 level like it did in '02 and '01? I'm saying that he's learned some, and should continue to do well for him. It's just not good enough to have a spot on a fantasy team.

I don't win fantasy leagues playing favorites. I get whoever can do the job. If I had reason to believe that Loaiza would guide me to a champoinship next year, I'd be singing his praises. Unfortunately, I don't believe that he will repeat those numbers or get close enough to waste a draft pick on him.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Loaiza posts an era under 4.00 next year, then I'm man enough to eat my crow. We won't know until the season is over though.

If you are rooting for him because he's the underdog, that's cool with me. I mean I'm a Ranger's fan, we are underdogs. :-)

The numbers speak for themselves. I can agree to disagree on the predictions.
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Postby LBJackal » Sun Dec 07, 2003 8:46 am

K, it's finished. But ya gotta agree that he's in the top 100 SP's :-b cuz there's no way you can find 100 better.

OK, I'm done :-D
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