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Postby HOOTIE » Fri Dec 05, 2003 3:12 am

LCBOY wrote:As fans we need to readjust of thinking about Rockies pitchers. A 5.00 ERA in Colorado is good. But we've been "taught" as baseball fans that a 5.00 ERA is bad, which it is any for any normal ballpark.

Also, the Rockies' problems is their offense. There offense has never been good enough. This may sound strange but let me explain. No matter how good the rockies pitchers are, they will always have a 5.00+ team ERA, even if they had five Randy Johnsons.


I disagree. Colorado had a 5.20 era with guys like Chacon. You actully think 5 RJS would only bring that down .20 to 5? Even in Coors, its unrealistic to expect 1,000 runs. Signing flyball pitchers like Neagle are a part of Rockies failures. Brandon Webb with that sinker would look nice. With the right pitchers, theres no reason Colorado can't put up a 4.50 era. If they score 900 runs, they could compete.
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Postby LBJackal » Fri Dec 05, 2003 4:49 am

HOOTIE wrote:
LCBOY wrote:As fans we need to readjust of thinking about Rockies pitchers. A 5.00 ERA in Colorado is good. But we've been "taught" as baseball fans that a 5.00 ERA is bad, which it is any for any normal ballpark.

Also, the Rockies' problems is their offense. There offense has never been good enough. This may sound strange but let me explain. No matter how good the rockies pitchers are, they will always have a 5.00+ team ERA, even if they had five Randy Johnsons.


I disagree. Colorado had a 5.20 era with guys like Chacon. You actully think 5 RJS would only bring that down .20 to 5? Even in Coors, its unrealistic to expect 1,000 runs. Signing flyball pitchers like Neagle are a part of Rockies failures. Brandon Webb with that sinker would look nice. With the right pitchers, theres no reason Colorado can't put up a 4.50 era. If they score 900 runs, they could compete.


The problem with all pitchers, and the problem I foresee with Webb going to Colorado (hypothetical of course) is that balls don't sink, since the air is thinner and the ball doesn't have anything to "push off" of. That's why curveballs don't curve and sliders don't slide. The fact that you can't get as good movement on the ball, combined with the way the ball carries combine to make Coors a pure hitters park. Basically it's a pitchers worst nightmare.
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Postby DK » Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:18 pm

Madison wrote:
DK wrote:
Madison wrote:
LCBOY wrote:DK,

Can you imagine what Honus Wagner would hit in Coors Field?!! Let me go check some of my Bill James books. I'll bet good ole Bill knows!!!! :-D


If there wasn't a pesky little detail about slugging %, then you would be ok. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that little detail is going to be used against you in the debate. I'd like to have seen how you responded to it.



Wait...didn't I use that already?


Nope. There is a very interesting fact about Wagner that leads to his slugging percentage being skewed and you haven't come close to using it yet.


:-? I have never heard of this. Time to go look...
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Postby Guest » Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:25 pm

HOOTIE wrote:
LCBOY wrote:As fans we need to readjust of thinking about Rockies pitchers. A 5.00 ERA in Colorado is good. But we've been "taught" as baseball fans that a 5.00 ERA is bad, which it is any for any normal ballpark.

Also, the Rockies' problems is their offense. There offense has never been good enough. This may sound strange but let me explain. No matter how good the rockies pitchers are, they will always have a 5.00+ team ERA, even if they had five Randy Johnsons.


I disagree. Colorado had a 5.20 era with guys like Chacon. You actully think 5 RJS would only bring that down .20 to 5? Even in Coors, its unrealistic to expect 1,000 runs. Signing flyball pitchers like Neagle are a part of Rockies failures. Brandon Webb with that sinker would look nice. With the right pitchers, theres no reason Colorado can't put up a 4.50 era. If they score 900 runs, they could compete.

So then you agree with then, right? My whole point is that if the Colorado is going to keep on giving up 900 runs a year they will NEVER win because their offense will have to score well over 1000 runs, which is not realistic (The Cleveland Indians did score 1009 runs in 1999, the only team since 1950 to do it.)

For them to compete they will have to be in the 750-800 range which will EXTREMELY difficult to do. I believe hard throwers would do better at Coors Field. Since the air is thinner, then there is less resistance, making fastballs faster. Or they could do what the ydo in tennis and use a different ball, one that is less lively. Tennis uses different ball on different surfaces.
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Postby LCBOY » Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:27 pm

The last post is me, LCBOY.
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Postby LBJackal » Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:13 pm

Anonymous wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:
LCBOY wrote:As fans we need to readjust of thinking about Rockies pitchers. A 5.00 ERA in Colorado is good. But we've been "taught" as baseball fans that a 5.00 ERA is bad, which it is any for any normal ballpark.

Also, the Rockies' problems is their offense. There offense has never been good enough. This may sound strange but let me explain. No matter how good the rockies pitchers are, they will always have a 5.00+ team ERA, even if they had five Randy Johnsons.


I disagree. Colorado had a 5.20 era with guys like Chacon. You actully think 5 RJS would only bring that down .20 to 5? Even in Coors, its unrealistic to expect 1,000 runs. Signing flyball pitchers like Neagle are a part of Rockies failures. Brandon Webb with that sinker would look nice. With the right pitchers, theres no reason Colorado can't put up a 4.50 era. If they score 900 runs, they could compete.

So then you agree with then, right? My whole point is that if the Colorado is going to keep on giving up 900 runs a year they will NEVER win because their offense will have to score well over 1000 runs, which is not realistic (The Cleveland Indians did score 1009 runs in 1999, the only team since 1950 to do it.)

For them to compete they will have to be in the 750-800 range which will EXTREMELY difficult to do. I believe hard throwers would do better at Coors Field. Since the air is thinner, then there is less resistance, making fastballs faster. Or they could do what the ydo in tennis and use a different ball, one that is less lively. Tennis uses different ball on different surfaces.


This would never happen. All the paperwork and people that would have to approve it would make it impossible. Their best bet is to alter the balls they are given, or rather prevent them from being altered - which is what the humidors are for.
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Postby LCBOY » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:24 pm

LBJackal wrote:This would never happen. All the paperwork and people that would have to approve it would make it impossible. Their best bet is to alter the balls they are given, or rather prevent them from being altered - which is what the humidors are for.


Never is long time. There is no underlying reason why it can't happen. We need to look forward not backward.
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Postby DK » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:26 pm

LCBOY wrote:
LBJackal wrote:This would never happen. All the paperwork and people that would have to approve it would make it impossible. Their best bet is to alter the balls they are given, or rather prevent them from being altered - which is what the humidors are for.


Never is long time. There is no underlying reason why it can't happen. We need to look forward not backward.


Yes! We need to look forward, to the days when Alex Rodriguez will be the best shortstop ever... }:-)
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Postby LCBOY » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:22 pm

DK wrote:
Yes! We need to look forward, to the days when Alex Rodriguez will be the best shortstop ever... }:-)

Oh DK...Is it that important to you that A-Rod become the greateat SS of all time? ;-)
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Postby DK » Sat Dec 06, 2003 9:58 pm

DK wrote:Oh LCBOY...Is it that important to you that Honus Wagner is the greateat SS of all time? ;-)


I thought of replying, but this is basically it. :-b
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