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Am I crazy? (I don't want Foulke on the Sox)

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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:26 am

HOOTIE wrote:Theo's not in any job security.


And Theo's also not calling the shots in Boston. I would say that he's a shade below Cashman on the authority totem pole.
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Postby LBJackal » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:26 am

HOOTIE wrote:
Yikes wrote:
Yeah the BoSox were the laughing stock of professional sports for a while in the beginning of last season for their lack of a recognizable name as their closer/s.

I think if I were Theo, part of the reason for signing one of the most expensive closer available on the market is not only for the betterment of the team but also for job security and for pleasing the media.


The trial basis was rather short. Change always comes under fire if there's not instant results. The premise of the closer overrated theory, is why always wait till the 9th to use your best pitcher? Many times the key moment comes in the 7th or 8th.
No team makes a roster move to please the media. Theo's not in any job security.


I hate to call a man naive, especially when I don't have a definate case to refer to, but you don't think that a team has ever signed a player with intentions other than improving a team's record? Such as appeasing the fans? (I'm not sure if you consider appeasing the fans to be pleasing the media; but I'll finish anyway)

Toronto may have be doing it, seeing as though they're 2nd lowest in payroll, yet have one of the highest payed players in Carlos Delgado. However the $1M we spent on Wells and Hinske combined will increase to $10M next season, so we ARE trying to win. But at the time of his contract signing, I'm not so sure we had those intentions. A $17.5M man surrounded by a bunch of minimum salary journeymen? Doesn't sound like the formula for success to me.
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Postby Arlo » Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:03 am

Should've brought back Gordon... :-D
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Postby Transmogrifier » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:44 pm

MoneyBall:

"The central insight that led him to both turn minor league nobodies into succuessful big league closers and to refuse to pay them the millions a year they demanded once they became free agents was that it was more efficient to create a closer than to buy one. Established closers were systematically overpriced, in large part because of the statistic by which closers were judged by the market place: 'saves.' The very word made the guy who achieved them sound vitally important. But the situation typically described by a save--the bases empty in the ninth inning with the team leading--was clearly far less critical than a lot of other situaitons pitchers faced. The closer's statisctic did not have the power of language; it was jsut a number. You could take a slightly above average pitcher and drop him into the closer's role, let him accumulate some gaudy number of saves, and then sell him off. You could, in essence, buy a stock, pump it up with false publicity, and sell it off for much more than you'd paid for it. Billy Beane had done it twice, and assumed he could do so over and over again. Jason Isringhausen's departure wasn't a loss to the Oakland A's but a happy consequence of a money machine known as 'Selling the Closer.'"



Alright.

Bobby Taylor
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Foulke?

And didn't Foulke constantly pitch two-inning saves, and was hurt at the end of the ALDS? Warning signs...
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Postby mikcou » Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:07 pm

maybe they should go after Eddie instead. He probably wouldnt ask for as much money but it seems that Theo is pretty intent on signing Foulke (going to two Celtics games with him).
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Postby HOOTIE » Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:48 pm

Saves is the worst, and most misleading stat in bb, i agree. Forget about saves. Look at whip and k/w rates. Foulke is overpriced, but he's no fluke.

LBJACKAL Any gm who makes a move to please the media should be fired instantly. You are hired to do a job, run a team. You are going to allow pencil pushers to make decisions for you?

Yes, teams do sign players with fans (profit motive) in mind. Ichiro was signed as much for his influence in Asian community, as for his talent. The profits that come through the gate and merchandising, pay for Ichiro many times over. Seattle has the biggest Asian population % wise.
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Postby ukjohn » Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:56 pm

I think the closer is the most overrated position in all of baseball. Go get a strikeout middle reliever, and you have yourself a top closer.

After saying all of that...Williamson won't last as a closer in Boston
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Postby Transmogrifier » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:10 pm

I'd rather a combo of Quantrill and Hawkins than Foulke. Probably the same money...
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Postby Yikes » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:49 pm

[quote="HOOTIE"]
LBJACKAL Any gm who makes a move to please the media should be fired instantly. You are hired to do a job, run a team. You are going to allow pencil pushers to make decisions for you?
[/quote]

Well GMs who do things to please the media [b]should[/b] be fired immediately however we're now going into the world of what [b]should[/b] happen verses what actually does happen.

There are plenty of examples of GMs bringing in players where their value did not only come from their athletism but also from their marketability:
-Tsoyoshi Shinjo (brought along to the Giants from the Mets mostly likely for fan appeal to the large Asian pop. there)
-Yao Ming (you now see Chinese ads at Houston Rocket games along the side-rotating boards)
-LA Galaxy Soccer Team (brought one of the most recognizable Mexican league soccer players to appeal to the large Mexican population in the Los Angeles area)

Sometimes actions like the ones mentioned above results in negotiating the team's long term success for short term popularity and a quick attendance booster.

Teams are usually in the business of making money, that is primary, winning is icing on the cake.

:-? Actually this occurs quite a lot in the real world, like in corporate America, the White House, etc...but we're here to discuss baseball, not politics
:-D
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Postby Greenrider » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:13 am

Yikes wrote:-Yao Ming (you now see Chinese ads at Houston Rocket games along the side-rotating boards)


somehow, the little voice of reason in me just can't let this one slide by.

they used the #1 pick in the NBA draft on Yao because they wanted to appeal to Texas' vast asian community?

Shinjo I'll buy, but this is the first overall pick in the NBA draft we're talking about, not a $1m baseball contract. I doubt that anybody gives a damn about how marketable a guy is if he is sitting on the bench and playing 3.4 minutes a game.
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