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Postby Coppermine » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:49 pm

Madison wrote:
Coppermine wrote:I don't know, I think I can understand the concern. It really has nothing to do with your and me or our supposed secrets.

The thing that really makes America great is that we're a country, despite having a sprawling beaurocratic system, that strikes an excellent balance between liberty and order. It's really what sets our democracy apart from many others. Unfortunately, there are times when the balance between the two is tipped too far in one direction or the other. In this case, the FBI was given some extra discretion after 9/11 through the Patriot Act and they abused it. There's no question that they abused it, the director of the FBI is claiming full responsibility and Senators from both parties are upset over it.

And it has nothing to do with whether or not average Americans have something to hide. It's that liberties were compromised to bring order and the reasonable balance of power in the country was slightly skewed. It's important to stay on top of things like this and show concern because otherwise power could potential be abused from every corner of the government, potentially compromising both liberty and order in a negative way.

Despite all the political and ideological differences in America, I think we can all agree that it's important to keep a checks and balances system in place at all levels of government simply to prevent an abuse of power. Even if it seems relatively meaningless or harmless to you or me, without that discretion, the balance that makes our country great could potentially be jeopardized.


I disagree with part of it. I don't believe we have an excellent balance between liberty and order. There is no order right now. The country is spiraling downward with zero hope in sight because of no order. And yet people are screaming for even more liberties, more laws/rules to be relaxed, etc. Not good. Not good at all.

However, I do agree that too much power corrupts, and we do need a system of checks and balances ;-D . In this case though, bank accounts are no big deal. The information can be gathered a few different ways and you don't even have to be a government official to do it. It's nothing special, and really isn't anything to get worked up about or concerned with.

It's like the little girl that cried wolf. You hear enough whining and crying over nothing, and you get to where you tune it out. So the government may have seen my bank account records. Yawn. I don't care, as there's nothing special or private in there, and seeing as how the bank can see what goes on and has laws they have to follow, one's bank account isn't even really private to begin with ;-) . Call me if/when something of substance happens or they are planinng/trying to do something of substance. B-)


Really? I really think, all things considered, that the country in itself is in good order; much better order than some people say and considerably better than anyone would have thought on the morning of September 12. I think to say that the country is spiraling downward with zero hope because of no order is either extremely exaggerated or extremely pessimistic.
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Postby Madison » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:37 am

Coppermine wrote:Really? I really think, all things considered, that the country in itself is in good order; much better order than some people say and considerably better than anyone would have thought on the morning of September 12. I think to say that the country is spiraling downward with zero hope because of no order is either extremely exaggerated or extremely pessimistic.


You think the country is ok? :-o

It was good for what....3 days....maybe 4? We were a country united for those few days and it felt good. Nothing can take this country down if we're united and treat our fellow citizens as we would like them to treat us.

This country is not anywhere remotely close to united now. Fighting and bickering about any little thing like a bunch of spoiled children that just have to have their way. With parents continuing to not teach any type of values to their kids, it's just going to continue to keep getting worse. The majority isn't willing to give one inch, or make one concession about anything (no matter how small) and don't understand the country will not and can not survive like that. There has to be give and take, and the group of selfish people is killing the country, and they are growing exponentially. If you call that pessimistic, then that's fine, but it's not news that this country was much healthier and had a brighter future 50 years ago. Now I'm just hoping that when the country implodes I'll be long dead and buried. With as fast as it's going downhill, it doesn't look like that's going to be the case though, and it's quite tragic that the country would do that to itself.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:19 am

Where is this mythical land where people didn't argue and fight? So you want to go back to how things were 50 years ago? Before the Civil Rights Act, before the Voting Rights Act, before desegregation, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder and people were routinely institutionalized because of it, Hoffa was running around doing his thing, the national guard had to be called in so black kids could get to school without being killed. If there is more conflict now maybe it's because people with conflicting views actually have a voice. It seems like you're looking at history through rose colored goggles.

But to try to keep the thread on topic...you're generally pretty tough on crime, Madison, but you don't have a problem with federal agents breaking the law? Normally your plan for dealing with criminals is "fry 'em" is the FBI above the law in your eyes?
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Postby Madison » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:52 am

Art Vandelay wrote:Where is this mythical land where people didn't argue and fight? So you want to go back to how things were 50 years ago? Before the Civil Rights Act, before the Voting Rights Act, before desegregation, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder and people were routinely institutionalized because of it, Hoffa was running around doing his thing, the national guard had to be called in so black kids could get to school without being killed. If there is more conflict now maybe it's because people with conflicting views actually have a voice. It seems like you're looking at history through rose colored goggles.

But to try to keep the thread on topic...you're generally pretty tough on crime, Madison, but you don't have a problem with federal agents breaking the law? Normally your plan for dealing with criminals is "fry 'em" is the FBI above the law in your eyes?


Well 50 years ago, the following was true as well:

Our lives were governed by the Ten Commandments, good judgment, and common sense.

We were taught to know the difference between right and wrong and to stand up and take responsibility for our actions.

Serving your country was a privilege; living in this country was a bigger privilege, not a God given right.


So we didn't just eliminate bad stuff, a ton of good was lost as well.


However, to get back on topic, true, I'm tough on crime and typically I'd say throw the book at whoever broke the law. In the case of FBI agents checking out bank accounts, I'd slap them on the wrists, say shame shame for taking a shortcut to get info that's available elsewhere, and let them go. And no, the FBI is not above the law, but when we're talking about info that is not 100% private and can be gathered other ways, I don't see a "crime".
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:23 am

I think that the further you look back in American history, the shorter the supply of common sense.
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Postby Madison » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:22 pm

Coppermine wrote:I think that the further you look back in American history, the shorter the supply of common sense.


Dunno, but I do believe the country right now has the most lack of common sense in it's history. Idiots and brain dead people are everywhere. :-o

:-b
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Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Postby Art Vandelay » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:40 pm

I'm with Madison here. It seems there is less and less common sense as time goes on. Although, it's probably about the same ratio of morons that it's always been, but now there's more people overall, so more morons.
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Postby Dan Lambskin » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:30 am

Art Vandelay wrote:I'm with Madison here. It seems there is less and less common sense as time goes on. Although, it's probably about the same ratio of morons that it's always been, but now there's more people overall, so more morons.


i blame American Idol
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:41 am

Madison wrote:
Coppermine wrote:I think that the further you look back in American history, the shorter the supply of common sense.


Dunno, but I do believe the country right now has the most lack of common sense in it's history. Idiots and brain dead people are everywhere. :-o

:-b


Yeah, I don't know how you can come to that conclusion Copper. People rely too much on what they see on the evening news and have little to no idea who is in office or who they've voted into office. They're constantly out for themselves with little regard for anything that goes on around them, let alone outside of their neighborhood. People with common sense are polite. How many polite people do you come across nowadays? It's gone.
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Postby Coppermine » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:15 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Madison wrote:
Coppermine wrote:I think that the further you look back in American history, the shorter the supply of common sense.


Dunno, but I do believe the country right now has the most lack of common sense in it's history. Idiots and brain dead people are everywhere. :-o

:-b


Yeah, I don't know how you can come to that conclusion Copper. People rely too much on what they see on the evening news and have little to no idea who is in office or who they've voted into office. They're constantly out for themselves with little regard for anything that goes on around them, let alone outside of their neighborhood. People with common sense are polite. How many polite people do you come across nowadays? It's gone.


Well, I don't think I generalized it enough. If we're talking people in general, than yes, I'm afraid common sense is in short supply.

When I think of common sense, i think of advancements we've made in technology, science, health and basic human understanding. We've come a long way in the past fifty years. It's unfortunately that perhaps the majority of people are morons, but as Art said, that's imply because there's more people.

More people go to college now than ever. Many jobs are in the service industry which, I'd argue, require more common sense than blue collar work. Not that there certainly aren't' exceptions, but fifty years ago, a lot more people were still doing manual labor. The percentage of people with degrees was way lower than it is now.

I think our society has the largest percentage of intelligent people than it ever did. It doesn't mean that percentage isn't trumped by morons... the kind that you describe Omaha, the ones who are slaves to their television and content with their ignorance.

But, I'm also around a lot of very intelligent and polite people too. Not that being polite is a sign of intelligence, some of the nicest people I've known are dumb as a doorknob. I think that education is probably my biggest indicator; and while plenty of idiots are going through our college system, the sheer percentage of those going now as opposed to fifty years ago has dramatically helped common sense.

I also didn't live 50 years ago, but from what I've read and heard about the era, it seems that people generally even less informed then than they are now. In fact, I'd argue that the lack of information available fifty years ago as opposed to now forced a generation to be misinformed about many things, as opposed to know at least when people have the option to inform themselves.

It's just a matter of whether or not they choose to do that. But who knows, maybe I'm just a bit of an optimist.
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