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Postby acsguitar » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:16 pm

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Postby Madison » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:44 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Madison wrote:Yawn. I got nothin to hide, so I could care less.

Yes Madison, obey the telescreen, kiss the telescreen, no, love the telescreen! :-D


:-b

I just don't see what the big deal is. Anyone care to explain? What I mean it, the government checks my bank records. Ok fine. I've broken no laws, have nothing to hide, and they are the ones in charge of protecting this country. If them seeing my bank records helps make this country safer, then so be it. Why should I try to cause them even more problems by throwing a fit or whining about it? I file taxes every year, so they already know my income, so what exactly is the big deal? It's not like they want me to wear an anklet so they can pinpoint my location at all times and wear a wireless recording device to record my every move and/or decision. Mountain out of a molehill. The government won't learn anything they don't already know by going through normal people's bank accounts. If they manage to find something to help them bust tax evaders, drug dealers, terrorists, or whatever, then cool. Works for me.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:19 pm

Madison wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Madison wrote:Yawn. I got nothin to hide, so I could care less.

Yes Madison, obey the telescreen, kiss the telescreen, no, love the telescreen! :-D


:-b

I just don't see what the big deal is. Anyone care to explain? What I mean it, the government checks my bank records. Ok fine. I've broken no laws, have nothing to hide, and they are the ones in charge of protecting this country. If them seeing my bank records helps make this country safer, then so be it. Why should I try to cause them even more problems by throwing a fit or whining about it? I file taxes every year, so they already know my income, so what exactly is the big deal? It's not like they want me to wear an anklet so they can pinpoint my location at all times and wear a wireless recording device to record my every move and/or decision. Mountain out of a molehill. The government won't learn anything they don't already know by going through normal people's bank accounts. If they manage to find something to help them bust tax evaders, drug dealers, terrorists, or whatever, then cool. Works for me.


It isn't about having anything to hide. It is about the fact that it is in violation of the 4th amendment and it sets an ugly precedent. Getting access to my personal information and setting wiretaps without warrants is a blurry line from searching my home without a warrant. I want the government to fight terrorism as much as the next guy but the problem is with the bureaucracy not moving fast enough and instead of fixing that problem they decided to circumvent the Constitution.
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:24 pm

When the government can arrest anyone who is a terrorist without a warrent, but they are the ones who define terrorists, I have a problem. The PATRIOT ACT has given them far too much power. Power corrupts; Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.
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Postby acsguitar » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:28 pm

Absolutely Adequate wrote:When the government can arrest anyone who is a terrorist without a warrent, but they are the ones who define terrorists, I have a problem. The PATRIOT ACT has given them far too much power. Power corrupts; Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.


That sounds a lot like what a terrorist would say. Whats the Patriot Acts phone #?
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Postby Madison » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:37 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Madison wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Madison wrote:Yawn. I got nothin to hide, so I could care less.

Yes Madison, obey the telescreen, kiss the telescreen, no, love the telescreen! :-D


:-b

I just don't see what the big deal is. Anyone care to explain? What I mean it, the government checks my bank records. Ok fine. I've broken no laws, have nothing to hide, and they are the ones in charge of protecting this country. If them seeing my bank records helps make this country safer, then so be it. Why should I try to cause them even more problems by throwing a fit or whining about it? I file taxes every year, so they already know my income, so what exactly is the big deal? It's not like they want me to wear an anklet so they can pinpoint my location at all times and wear a wireless recording device to record my every move and/or decision. Mountain out of a molehill. The government won't learn anything they don't already know by going through normal people's bank accounts. If they manage to find something to help them bust tax evaders, drug dealers, terrorists, or whatever, then cool. Works for me.


It isn't about having anything to hide. It is about the fact that it is in violation of the 4th amendment and it sets an ugly precedent. Getting access to my personal information and setting wiretaps without warrants is a blurry line from searching my home without a warrant. I want the government to fight terrorism as much as the next guy but the problem is with the bureaucracy not moving fast enough and instead of fixing that problem they decided to circumvent the Constitution.


What personal info would/could they get from your bank account? How much your car payment is? They can get that info just as easily by pulling your credit report. Goes for most anything. You file taxes, so they know your income, as to the bills, they pretty well have access to pull that info from the companies themselves and/or your credit report. What could they possibly find if you don't have anything to hide? Not saying you do Pogo :-D , just asking what the big deal is. None of the info is that hard to get, and not exclusive to your bank account.

Where did the article say anything about abuse of wiretaps? Now that I could see as an issue, but all I saw was bank accounts. Nothing about wiretaps. :-?

Pogotheostrich wrote:the problem is with the bureaucracy not moving fast enough


Blame your fellow Americans right there. Anytime any administration wants to do anything, no matter what it is, they run into resistance. Heck, we've got a cure for a type of cancer that's effective for 80% of the people and guarantees that the person who gets the shot won't get that type of cancer ever. One would think that's a great thing and everyone would run out to get the shot. Did they? Oh of course not. They whined and cried and crapped all over it because getting that shot means 5 and 6 year olds will start having more sex. ;-7

Too many people believe the government is out to get us, so they try to shoot down anything the government tries to do. I'm not trying to say everything the government does is perfect and that they don't drop the ball, or do something that's only in their own best interest, but when everyone whines, cries, and complains about everything that the governments wants to do (no matter how beneficial it may be), it's going to slow down the process and those same people will continue to whine, cry, and complain that nothing ever gets done. The government will never have full support of the country. Just won't happen, so they need to start doing what needs to be done to do their jobs. If that means upsetting a few people who are too sensitive, then so be it.


Note: The bottom two paragraphs are a general discussion about the government and policies in general, not necessarily regarding the topic at hand.
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Postby chadlincoln » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:47 pm

Madison wrote:Yawn. I got nothin to hide, so I could care less.
That's exactly how I feel.
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Postby Coppermine » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:16 pm

I don't know, I think I can understand the concern. It really has nothing to do with your and me or our supposed secrets.

The thing that really makes America great is that we're a country, despite having a sprawling beaurocratic system, that strikes an excellent balance between liberty and order. It's really what sets our democracy apart from many others. Unfortunately, there are times when the balance between the two is tipped too far in one direction or the other. In this case, the FBI was given some extra discretion after 9/11 through the Patriot Act and they abused it. There's no question that they abused it, the director of the FBI is claiming full responsibility and Senators from both parties are upset over it.

And it has nothing to do with whether or not average Americans have something to hide. It's that liberties were compromised to bring order and the reasonable balance of power in the country was slightly skewed. It's important to stay on top of things like this and show concern because otherwise power could potential be abused from every corner of the government, potentially compromising both liberty and order in a negative way.

Despite all the political and ideological differences in America, I think we can all agree that it's important to keep a checks and balances system in place at all levels of government simply to prevent an abuse of power. Even if it seems relatively meaningless or harmless to you or me, without that discretion, the balance that makes our country great could potentially be jeopardized.
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Postby Madison » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:57 pm

Coppermine wrote:I don't know, I think I can understand the concern. It really has nothing to do with your and me or our supposed secrets.

The thing that really makes America great is that we're a country, despite having a sprawling beaurocratic system, that strikes an excellent balance between liberty and order. It's really what sets our democracy apart from many others. Unfortunately, there are times when the balance between the two is tipped too far in one direction or the other. In this case, the FBI was given some extra discretion after 9/11 through the Patriot Act and they abused it. There's no question that they abused it, the director of the FBI is claiming full responsibility and Senators from both parties are upset over it.

And it has nothing to do with whether or not average Americans have something to hide. It's that liberties were compromised to bring order and the reasonable balance of power in the country was slightly skewed. It's important to stay on top of things like this and show concern because otherwise power could potential be abused from every corner of the government, potentially compromising both liberty and order in a negative way.

Despite all the political and ideological differences in America, I think we can all agree that it's important to keep a checks and balances system in place at all levels of government simply to prevent an abuse of power. Even if it seems relatively meaningless or harmless to you or me, without that discretion, the balance that makes our country great could potentially be jeopardized.


I disagree with part of it. I don't believe we have an excellent balance between liberty and order. There is no order right now. The country is spiraling downward with zero hope in sight because of no order. And yet people are screaming for even more liberties, more laws/rules to be relaxed, etc. Not good. Not good at all.

However, I do agree that too much power corrupts, and we do need a system of checks and balances ;-D . In this case though, bank accounts are no big deal. The information can be gathered a few different ways and you don't even have to be a government official to do it. It's nothing special, and really isn't anything to get worked up about or concerned with.

It's like the little girl that cried wolf. You hear enough whining and crying over nothing, and you get to where you tune it out. So the government may have seen my bank account records. Yawn. I don't care, as there's nothing special or private in there, and seeing as how the bank can see what goes on and has laws they have to follow, one's bank account isn't even really private to begin with ;-) . Call me if/when something of substance happens or they are planinng/trying to do something of substance. B-)
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Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Postby Art Vandelay » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:24 pm

There are plenty of reasons for why this shouldn't have happened, but here's one that I think should be reason enough for everyone: it's unconstitutional.

If the government doesn't follow the rules and laws outlined in the Constitution, why should I? or anyone? Also, it's a slippery slope, what's next the suspension of Habeas Corpus?

Whoops...too late.
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