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Shoeless Joe Jackson

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Should Shoeless Joe Jackson be enshrined into the Baseball Hall of Fame?

Yes
23
61%
No
15
39%
 
Total votes : 38

Postby stomperrob » Mon May 31, 2004 3:12 am

frog99 wrote:Jackson may never have dropped balls, but it is easy for an outfeilder to "misjudge" a fly ball which does not earn him an error. Example: A rotuine fly ball is hit, but the outfeilder does not break as soon as the ball is hit. He then runs (but not as fast as he is capable of) then when he gets near the ball he dives, and misses the ball, which gets by him. the runner is credited with a triple, (not an erro, afterall the outfeilder looked like he treid) and an easy out is lost.

Read 8 Men Out it explains in detail how the players fix games, so some fans are fooled.

I'm quite aware of how fielders can do these things - I'm saying that Jackson didn't. People keep saying he did but he didn't. Let's put the issue of his fielding to rest - look at the testimony of James C. Hamilton, official scorer of the 1919 World Series - he stated the only suspicious play he saw involving Jackson was one in which Jackson was throwing the ball from center field to home plate for an out when Cicotte jumped up and knocked the ball down - it was a good throw and clearly not Joe's fault.

There was nothing wrong with his fielding!!!!
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Postby frog99 » Mon May 31, 2004 2:36 pm

stomperrob wrote:
Lefty Williams testified that he told the gamblers that Jackson was in on it with the other players even though he never discussed it with Jackson. He testified Jackson was not in on it!


Jackson attended meetings where fixing was discussed, played poor defense, ran the bases badly. He was in on the fix and even siad so while under oath.
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Postby stomperrob » Mon May 31, 2004 3:59 pm

frog99 wrote:Jackson attended meetings where fixing was discussed, played poor defense, ran the bases badly. He was in on the fix and even siad so while under oath.

Jackson did not attend any of the meetings - this was testified to by other players. There was nothing wrong with his fielding and there was nothing wrong with his baserunning - where on earth are you getting this from? He admitted he received the money, he never admitted throwing any games and he was never found guilty of throwing any games _ Comiskey himself said there was nothing wrong with Jackson's playing!!!!
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Postby LCBOY » Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:05 pm

stomperrob wrote:
LCBOY wrote:Please cite your sources. Where did you read that Jackson told Comiskey about the fix BEFORE the World Series?

The 1951 resolution is meaningless, passed by Joe Jackson supporters.


My sources are the book, Say It Ain't So Joe, by Donald Gropman, and Jackson's Grand Jury testimony.

Its laughable that you feel the 1951 resolution is meaningless because it is was passed by by Jackson supporters - they are Jackson supporters only because they examined the evidence - therefore it is meaningless only to you.

Such notables as former baseball commissioner A.B. "Happy" Chandler and well known and respected Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz support Jackson's case.

Lefty Williams testified that he told the gamblers that Jackson was in on it with the other players even though he never discussed it with Jackson. He testified Jackson was not in on it!


It's meaningless because they have no power to induct players into the HoF.

Well, then if Chandler and Dershowitz support Jackson then he must be innocent, right? :-°
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Postby stomperrob » Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:39 pm

LCBOY wrote:Well, then if Chandler and Dershowitz support Jackson then he must be innocent, right? :-°

Ah, the sarcasm drips from the keyboard. Actually I decided he was innocent long before I was aware of their opinions. By the same token, I see no reason for you to belittle their well reasoned opinions. I am certainly more inclined to follow their beliefs than any of the half-truths and outright fiction that some have posted here. In the end, a lot of it comes down to choosing whether to believe Comiskey or Jackson - sorry, but for me Jackson wins that one hands down. Comiskey and his slimeball lawyer screwed Jackson, plain and simple. Jackson was uneducated and not particularly bright, but that does not make him dishonest - it did make him very easy to take advantage of as he was very trusting and believed Comiskey would do right by him.

It's awful funny that when Comiskey's lawyer testified, he had copious notes from his interviews with all the players that were involved in the fix. When asked for his notes on his interview with Jackson, he claimed he didn't take notes during that interview - how convenient (but then he didn't want the part about Comiskey knowing ahead getting out did he).

People keep saying jackson shouldn't be allowed into the HOF because he threw games - he was never found guilty of throwing games by any hearing or any investigation ever conducted, only of taking the money (which he tried to return)
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Postby Tavish » Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:41 pm

My Two cents.

he was never found guilty of throwing games by any hearing or any investigation ever conducted

Neither he nor any of the Black Sox were ever tried for throwing games. There was no law against it and the trial judge even instructed the jury it was not a crime.

He testified under oath that he agreed to throw the games for $20,000. He signed a confession stating the same thing. He knew about the fix and accepted money for it. I'm happy he tried to give the money back, but it doesn't change the fact he agreed to throw the game.

The plan was never to throw every game they played, only to throw five of them. His stats from the series pretty well reflect it. Jackson hit .250 in the first 4 games that were thrown with no RBI's. In the fifth game he was hitless until the game was 5-0 and he hit a solo HR and then later when it was 10-1 he hit a 2 run double. In the three games that were not fixed he hit .575.

That is all really just backstory though to me and can all be argued to the end of time without me having a set opinion either way. The biggest reason I have no problem with Jackson being excluded was that he had his chance. There was no rule that prohibited him from being in the HOF until 1991 when the Rose issue exploded. The selection committee felt his actions were not HOF worthy for 70 years and that is good enough for me.
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Postby LCBOY » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:26 pm

stomperrob wrote:
LCBOY wrote:Well, then if Chandler and Dershowitz support Jackson then he must be innocent, right? :-°

Ah, the sarcasm drips from the keyboard. Actually I decided he was innocent long before I was aware of their opinions. By the same token, I see no reason for you to belittle their well reasoned opinions. I am certainly more inclined to follow their beliefs than any of the half-truths and outright fiction that some have posted here. In the end, a lot of it comes down to choosing whether to believe Comiskey or Jackson - sorry, but for me Jackson wins that one hands down. Comiskey and his slimeball lawyer screwed Jackson, plain and simple. Jackson was uneducated and not particularly bright, but that does not make him dishonest - it did make him very easy to take advantage of as he was very trusting and believed Comiskey would do right by him.

It's awful funny that when Comiskey's lawyer testified, he had copious notes from his interviews with all the players that were involved in the fix. When asked for his notes on his interview with Jackson, he claimed he didn't take notes during that interview - how convenient (but then he didn't want the part about Comiskey knowing ahead getting out did he).

People keep saying jackson shouldn't be allowed into the HOF because he threw games - he was never found guilty of throwing games by any hearing or any investigation ever conducted, only of taking the money (which he tried to return)


stomperrob has raised some interesting points. I've decided to study this issue in-depth. I found some websites with court documents and other stuff. I shall return in a few weeks with some findings...

Two key questions

1) What was Jackson's involvement and culpability in the fix?

2) Does Jackson actually have HoF credentials as a player? Most people ASSUME that he does, but is this true or not? I plan to use a two fold approach 1) a sabermetric analysis and 2) contemporary opinions of Jackson from players and managers. The people who actually saw him play, what did they say about him?
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:48 pm

LCBOY wrote:stomperrob has raised some interesting points. I've decided to study this issue in-depth. I found some websites with court documents and other stuff. I shall return in a few weeks with some findings...

Two key questions

1) What was Jackson's involvement and culpability in the fix?

2) Does Jackson actually have HoF credentials as a player? Most people ASSUME that he does, but is this true or not? I plan to use a two fold approach 1) a sabermetric analysis and 2) contemporary opinions of Jackson from players and managers. The people who actually saw him play, what did they say about him?


I look forward to it. ;-D Hopefully, it will go better than the A-Rod vs. Wagner debate. :-)
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Postby Arlo » Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:01 am

Lofunzo wrote:I look forward to it. ;-D Hopefully, it will go better than the A-Rod vs. Wagner debate. :-)

Not much chance of Shoeless Joe suddenly becoming a third baseman, at least... :-D
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Postby Arlo » Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:58 am

stomperrob wrote:"his fielding average for the Series of 1919 was perfect".

I think the fielding issue is more ambiguous and open to interpretation than that; two two-out triples to left field with a pair of runners on will certainly raise a few eyebrows. I guess we'll never know for sure.

stomperrob wrote:Lefty Williams testified that he told the gamblers that Jackson was in on it with the other players even though he never discussed it with Jackson. He testified Jackson was not in on it!

Then again, Cicotte and Gandil said he was...
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