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Shoeless Joe Jackson

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Should Shoeless Joe Jackson be enshrined into the Baseball Hall of Fame?

Yes
23
61%
No
15
39%
 
Total votes : 38

Postby Los Angeles Cubs » Sat May 29, 2004 9:19 pm

I think he deserves to be in the Hall. To me it matters what he did on the field. Especially because it was during the World Series that he participated in throwing the games.
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Postby stomperrob » Sun May 30, 2004 12:34 am

Jackson warned Comiskey about the fix ahead of time and even asked to be benched for the World Series so as not to held to blame with the others. Comiskey obviously could not admit to this to save Jackson with implicating himself. Later when he was given the money, he went to Comiskey's office with the money but had the door slammed in his faceby Comiskey's assistant, Harry Grabiner who said "We know what you want" because there were 2 other players in the office at that very moment, Gandil and Felsch discussing the fix with Comiskey.

Ban Johnson, founder of the American League tried to drive Comiskey out of the game because of his involvement.

Even Comiskey swore under oath he never saw Jackson play dishonest baseball, including the 1919 World Series. Comiskey screwed Jackson by denying Jackson told him ahead of time of the fix, not by accusing him of throwing the series - an important distinction!

As for his defensive play, he had 16 put-outs, 1 assist, and no errors. The South Carolina State Senate and House of Representatives passed a resolution in 1951 in favor of reinstating Jackson - in their review of the facts they found "his fielding average for the Series of 1919 was perfect".

Sorry, but I definitely have to side with Joe on this - Comiskey is the one who doesn't deserve to be in the Hall.
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Postby stomperrob » Sun May 30, 2004 12:47 am

frog99 wrote:No he didn't.

Jackson may have played hard at the plate, but also made costly errors that lead to several loses. Comiskey may have been a terrible person & boss, but Jackson wasn't his fall guy. Afterall Jackson was the one who took money to lose games not Comiskey

What errors are you referring to????
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Postby wkelly91 » Sun May 30, 2004 8:03 am

Shoeless Joe is long since dead. Most if not all his contemporaries are dead. It has been almost 85 years since then.

Can we not put this guy in?

Americans are a forgiving people...even Nixon had regained favor before he died....Why not Shoeless Joe?

For those of you who want to stand up now and say: "Well then what about Rose, can we let him in too?"

NO!

It is too soon. Lets have this discussion in another 60 years when all the facts have been ferretted out and Rose has had the opportunity for a death-bed confession. :-/
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Postby Lofunzo » Sun May 30, 2004 11:46 am

Los Angeles Cubs wrote:I think he deserves to be in the Hall. To me it matters what he did on the field. Especially because it was during the World Series that he participated in throwing the games.


Right. And it was determined that he threw games on the field. So you are saying that it's O.K. because it was the WS?? That is the grandest stage.

Until it is ever determined with certainty that he did not throw the series, I say keep him out. You gotta be strong with this stuff.
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Postby Tavish » Sun May 30, 2004 12:16 pm

wkelly91 wrote:For those of you who want to stand up now and say: "Well then what about Rose, can we let him in too?"

NO!

It is too soon. Lets have this discussion in another 60 years when all the facts have been ferretted out and Rose has had the opportunity for a death-bed confession. :-/


Rose has already made his confession, and for $29.95 you can read it in all its glory. I had more compassion for Rose when he was still lying about it than I did after he used it as fodder to make money.
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Postby stomperrob » Sun May 30, 2004 12:37 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
Los Angeles Cubs wrote:I think he deserves to be in the Hall. To me it matters what he did on the field. Especially because it was during the World Series that he participated in throwing the games.


Right. And it was determined that he threw games on the field. So you are saying that it's O.K. because it was the WS?? That is the grandest stage.

Until it is ever determined with certainty that he did not throw the series, I say keep him out. You gotta be strong with this stuff.

I don't believe it was ever determined he threw games on the field - if you read my earlier post, even Comiskey testified under oath that Jackson never threw a game - his crime was taking the money.
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Postby LCBOY » Sun May 30, 2004 9:22 pm

stomperrob wrote:Jackson warned Comiskey about the fix ahead of time and even asked to be benched for the World Series so as not to held to blame with the others. Comiskey obviously could not admit to this to save Jackson with implicating himself. Later when he was given the money, he went to Comiskey's office with the money but had the door slammed in his faceby Comiskey's assistant, Harry Grabiner who said "We know what you want" because there were 2 other players in the office at that very moment, Gandil and Felsch discussing the fix with Comiskey.

Ban Johnson, founder of the American League tried to drive Comiskey out of the game because of his involvement.

Even Comiskey swore under oath he never saw Jackson play dishonest baseball, including the 1919 World Series. Comiskey screwed Jackson by denying Jackson told him ahead of time of the fix, not by accusing him of throwing the series - an important distinction!

As for his defensive play, he had 16 put-outs, 1 assist, and no errors. The South Carolina State Senate and House of Representatives passed a resolution in 1951 in favor of reinstating Jackson - in their review of the facts they found "his fielding average for the Series of 1919 was perfect".

Sorry, but I definitely have to side with Joe on this - Comiskey is the one who doesn't deserve to be in the Hall.



Please cite your sources. Where did you read that Jackson told Comiskey about the fix BEFORE the World Series?

The 1951 resolution is meaningless, passed by Joe Jackson supporters.
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Postby frog99 » Sun May 30, 2004 9:42 pm

Jackson may never have dropped balls, but it is easy for an outfeilder to "misjudge" a fly ball which does not earn him an error. Example: A rotuine fly ball is hit, but the outfeilder does not break as soon as the ball is hit. He then runs (but not as fast as he is capable of) then when he gets near the ball he dives, and misses the ball, which gets by him. the runner is credited with a triple, (not an erro, afterall the outfeilder looked like he treid) and an easy out is lost.

Read 8 Men Out it explains in detail how the players fix games, so some fans are fooled.
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Postby stomperrob » Mon May 31, 2004 3:01 am

LCBOY wrote:Please cite your sources. Where did you read that Jackson told Comiskey about the fix BEFORE the World Series?

The 1951 resolution is meaningless, passed by Joe Jackson supporters.


My sources are the book, Say It Ain't So Joe, by Donald Gropman, and Jackson's Grand Jury testimony.

Its laughable that you feel the 1951 resolution is meaningless because it is was passed by by Jackson supporters - they are Jackson supporters only because they examined the evidence - therefore it is meaningless only to you.

Such notables as former baseball commissioner A.B. "Happy" Chandler and well known and respected Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz support Jackson's case.

Lefty Williams testified that he told the gamblers that Jackson was in on it with the other players even though he never discussed it with Jackson. He testified Jackson was not in on it!
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