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Shoeless Joe Jackson

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Should Shoeless Joe Jackson be enshrined into the Baseball Hall of Fame?

Yes
23
61%
No
15
39%
 
Total votes : 38

Postby Arlo » Sun Nov 30, 2003 11:01 am

wrveres wrote:I'd like to think that we will be having the same discussion about Pete in 80 years.....


No.

Interesting point. I wonder... :-?

Hard to push the "the others were guilty but one guy was innocent" argument in Pete's case, though. :-D
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Postby LCBOY » Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:35 pm

Arlo wrote:
wrveres wrote:I'd like to think that we will be having the same discussion about Pete in 80 years.....


No.

Interesting point. I wonder... :-?

Hard to push the "the others were guilty but one guy was innocent" argument in Pete's case, though. :-D


The Joe Jackson and Pete Rose cases are very different. Joe Jackson conspired to lose games on purpose. Pete Rose gambled on his team to win. That is different. Also, Rose didn't gamble on his team as a player as far as we know. His Hall of Fame career was a a player, not a manager. Rose may be reinstated in the near future. Whether he should be allowed to work in baseball again is another matter...
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Postby Arlo » Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:42 pm

LCBOY wrote:The Joe Jackson and Pete Rose cases are very different. Joe Jackson conspired to lose games on purpose. Pete Rose gambled on his team to win. That is different. Also, Rose didn't gamble on his team as a player as far as we know. His Hall of Fame career was a a player, not a manager. Rose may be reinstated in the near future. Whether he should be allowed to work in baseball again is another matter...

Understood; just wondering whether the way Rose is perceived will change over time. Will he star in the remake of Field of Dreams? Will he be villified? It would be interesting to take a peak at the discussion boards of the future... :-)
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Postby Madison » Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:09 pm

Arlo wrote:It would be interesting to take a peak at the discussion boards of the future... :-)


I most certainly agree with that. :-D ;-D
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Postby wrveres » Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:29 pm

I disagree. They are one in the same, Pete Rose and Joe Jackson. Its written on the wall, somewhere in every MLB locker room. Baseball, with all it's insanity over the years, has one basic rule. The Fans know what it is, the Non-Fans could probably even tell ya. Certainy the players and their MANAGERS know it too. ;-)

If Bud opens up that can of worms. The union will drive a truck through that so fast and soon we will have ..... "Mark Prior's Daily Baseball Line." or some BS like that .... nope ..... "No Pete ... No Joe" ..sorry

Its bad enough that football is hung up on .... "The Spread" Gambling is a way of life for them.
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Postby wrveres » Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:27 pm

Rose's story: A prison without bars

Pete Rose will do a network interview with ABC-TV's Prime Time in mid-December for release on Jan. 8 to promote his latest book, My Prison Without Bars, that will discuss Rose's life as a baseball outsider for the past 14 years.

Whether he will admit to anything regarding his gambling, and more specifically, to the allegation that he bet on Reds games while a manager here in the mid- to late- 1980s, isn't being publicly discussed by Rose's associates or the book publisher, Rodale Inc.

Warren Greene, his business agent, cautioned that Rose won't do anything to upset his bid for reinstatement.

"We're upbeat because we haven't heard anything to cause us not to be," Greene said. "It's still before (the commissioner)."

When Greene was asked to give his reaction to whether there was anything "explosive" in the book, he would say only that such a characterization would "help sell the book.," but that he was bound by a nondisclosure contract not to discuss the book's contents.

Richard Levin, a spokesman for Major League Baseball, said he didn't know the particulars of the Rose book and said baseball officials would have no comment on it. He reiterated Major League Baseball's position that there is no timetable to the possibility of Rose's reinstatement.

The press run of the book is 500,000 copies, said Cindy Ratzlaff at Rodale Inc.

She would not discuss the book's contents. The author is Rick Hill. The cost is $24.95.

"I'm very excited about it," said Kathy Bruser, store manager at Waldenbooks in Western Hills. "With Pete having grown up here and being such a popular figure here, I expect the book to be a big seller. ... In my personal opinion, though, I would say that if he doesn't address the gambling issue, it will be difficult for the book to have 'legs' nationally."

Rose's national TV interview will be with Prime Time's Charlie Gibson, who will also interview Rose the next day on Good Morning America, Ratzlaff said.

Immediately following will be interviews with national reporters and then a book tour that will include New York, Los Angeles, Cincinnati and Philadelphia.


I couldn't help but thinking afterwords......

"I have never been to a Casino without a bar, what is he talking about?"
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Postby Mad'sWife » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:37 am

wrveres wrote:I couldn't help but thinking afterwords......

"I have never been to a Casino without a bar, what is he talking about?"


I have but it was on an indian reservation. :-D
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Dec 27, 2003 12:46 pm

Madison wrote:I voted "no". He cheated the game, so he shouldn't be in the hall, in my opinion.


I agree but can't they at least give him his shoes back?

wrveres wrote:I disagree. They are one in the same, Pete Rose and Joe Jackson. Its written on the wall, somewhere in every MLB locker room. Baseball, with all it's insanity over the years, has one basic rule. The Fans know what it is, the Non-Fans could probably even tell ya. Certainy the players and their MANAGERS know it too. ;-)

If Bud opens up that can of worms. The union will drive a truck through that so fast and soon we will have ..... "Mark Prior's Daily Baseball Line." or some BS like that .... nope ..... "No Pete ... No Joe" ..sorry

Its bad enough that football is hung up on .... "The Spread" Gambling is a way of life for them.


They are different offenses but I agree with your assessment on Pete. I used to say that they should just let him in but it's about more than that. It's about setting a precedent. Kind of like letting Casey Martin use a golf cart. He needed it and they all knew it but they didn't want everyone with a limp using 1 in the future. Back to Pete.......It doesn't matter to me whether it was only as a manager and whether he just bet on his team to win. If he bet on his team to win, then he potentially put his players in jeopardy and, in doing so, negatively affected to integrity of the game.

As WR stated, it clearly states that if you bet on baseball, you are banned for life. I am a stickler for either abiding by the rules or choosing another option. If he didn't like the rules, then he should have retired, gotten his HOF induction, and then worked at the OTB.
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Postby stomperrob » Sat May 29, 2004 4:22 pm

Shoeless Joe was was a patsy and a fall guy for Charles Comiskey. Jackson attempted to return the money but was thwarted by Comiskey. Comiskey and his lawyer screwed Jackson and made hime look guilty to save Comiskey's ass because doing otherwise would show Comiskey had advance knowledge of the fix.

Joe was the star of the series. Although he hit only one home run, he fielded flawlessly, batted .375 to lead all players, and his 12 hits set a World series record that lasted for decades. Hardley the numbers of someone throwing a game. Even the great Ted Williams has expressed his support for Jackson.

In my opinion, if you examine the case in its entirety, Comiskey should be booted out of the Hall of Fame and Shoeless Joe Jackson should assume his rightful place there.

For more info on the subject on what really happened, read the book "Say It Ain't So Joe! by Donald Gropman or visit the website for The Shoeless Joe Jackson Society at:
http://www.blackbetsy.com/society.htm
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Postby frog99 » Sat May 29, 2004 7:45 pm

stomperrob wrote:he fielded flawlessly


No he didn't.

Jackson may have played hard at the plate, but also made costly errors that lead to several loses. Comiskey may have been a terrible person & boss, but Jackson wasn't his fall guy. Afterall Jackson was the one who took money to lose games not Comiskey
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