Arlo wrote:Maybe this would make a fun debate after all. The trouble is that the two are close enough that the whole issue really hinges on where you choose to place your priorities...
Good defense and good speed? It's left field. It's a hitter's position. It's where you put Dave Kingman and Frank Howard. In any case, Bonds isn't an all-time great fielder, either (Bill James gives him a B-, I believe).
(Besides, didn't you say Frank Thomas is easily a top 5 1B?)
Anyway, what this discussion needs is some Musial supporters...
All good points Arlo. I was comparing Bond's defense to all the other great left fielders. There never has been a left fielder in baseball history that had defense comparable to Willie Mays, Tris Speaker, and Andrew Jones in center or Roberto Clemente in right. If such a left fielder did exist he would have been shifted to center or right field early in his career. I agree left fielder is a hitter's postion but among the great left fielders Bond's defense is the best.
As for the Big Hurt...well...he plays decent defense for a DH. First base has always been a power position...I'd till take Bagwell before Thomas because of his good defense. There has never been a first baseman that combined the offense of a Gerhig, Foxx, Bagwell with the defense of a Keith Hernandez or J.T. Snow or a Hal Chase.
Arlo wrote:Maybe this would make a fun debate after all. The trouble is that the two are close enough that the whole issue really hinges on where you choose to place your priorities...
Good defense and good speed? It's left field. It's a hitter's position. It's where you put Dave Kingman and Frank Howard. In any case, Bonds isn't an all-time great fielder, either (Bill James gives him a B-, I believe).
(Besides, didn't you say Frank Thomas is easily a top 5 1B?)
Anyway, what this discussion needs is some Musial supporters...
All good points Arlo. I was comparing Bond's defense to all the other great left fielders. There never has been a left fielder in baseball history that had defense comparable to Willie Mays, Tris Speaker, and Andrew Jones in center or Roberto Clemente in right. If such a left fielder did exist he would have been shifted to center or right field early in his career. I agree left fielder is a hitter's postion but among the great left fielders Bond's defense is the best.
As for the Big Hurt...well...he plays decent defense for a DH. First base has always been a power position...I'd till take Bagwell before Thomas because of his good defense. There has never been a first baseman that combined the offense of a Gerhig, Foxx, Bagwell with the defense of a Keith Hernandez or J.T. Snow or a Hal Chase.
Also good points. Just one quick question: would you rate Bonds' defense higher than Jackson's? I would have thought otherwise, but I'm not entirely sure.
Arlo wrote:Maybe this would make a fun debate after all. The trouble is that the two are close enough that the whole issue really hinges on where you choose to place your priorities...
Good defense and good speed? It's left field. It's a hitter's position. It's where you put Dave Kingman and Frank Howard. In any case, Bonds isn't an all-time great fielder, either (Bill James gives him a B-, I believe).
(Besides, didn't you say Frank Thomas is easily a top 5 1B?)
Anyway, what this discussion needs is some Musial supporters...
All good points Arlo. I was comparing Bond's defense to all the other great left fielders. There never has been a left fielder in baseball history that had defense comparable to Willie Mays, Tris Speaker, and Andrew Jones in center or Roberto Clemente in right. If such a left fielder did exist he would have been shifted to center or right field early in his career. I agree left fielder is a hitter's postion but among the great left fielders Bond's defense is the best.
As for the Big Hurt...well...he plays decent defense for a DH. First base has always been a power position...I'd till take Bagwell before Thomas because of his good defense. There has never been a first baseman that combined the offense of a Gerhig, Foxx, Bagwell with the defense of a Keith Hernandez or J.T. Snow or a Hal Chase.
Also good points. Just one quick question: would you rate Bonds' defense higher than Jackson's? I would have thought otherwise, but I'm not entirely sure.
I've never compared Bonds to Jackson. I will go research this and find out.
As an aside, I can never understand people's fascination with Joe Jackson? I looked at his stats and while he was amongst the league leaders every season, he rarely led the league in any major hitting categories. He never had a 100 RBI season and never won a batting title. I know people are enamored with his .356 career BA but he "retired" at age 30 (he had less than 5000 ABs) and so he didn't have a decline phase in his career. I don't know. Jackson is hard to evaluate in terms of his Hall of Fame credentials if he is ever reinstated.
Bonds is great, and 500-500 will never be done, ever again-but i think that ted still has the upper hand.
Career stats (i've subtacted the toatls from bonds' 4th, 5th, and 6th years as williams missed those years due to being in the military. I didnt subtract numbers in Avg and OPS as those are averages and a few years probably wouldnt affect those numbers as much)
R HR RBI SB AVG OPS
bonds 1633 566 1407 366 .297 1.035
Williams 1798 521 1839 24 .344 1.115
It must also be remembered that Williams missed most of two other seasons due again to military service (6 games one year, left for service, 37 games the next when he came back.)
On the defensive note, Bonds Probably does have the upper hand. I think though (correct me if i'm wrong) that i read somewhere that Williams was and still is one of the best players of the monster in left field at fenway. That wall can give some difficult bounces, and i think i read that williams learned how to handle them better than anyone else.
Another Sidenote- Williams played in the 1940's and 50's, before steriods (at least, i dont think there were any back then). If bonds is indeed on stroids, as many think he is, then that could be one reason for many of his HRs. I know that this shouldnt matter, but sometimes steroid use can make you look at stats in a different way.
Just some of my thoughts, though both of them are great players, i think that Williams is better.
Lets Go patsox!
yay! sox win!!!
bambino-1918-2004
Rest In Pain ;-)
eftda wrote:6 mvps ok, thats nice 658 homeruns yes, buy only 566 if you subtact the homers hit in the years that williams missed also, did steroids help? 500 steals ok, nice, but IMO, steals are only a way to move runners into scoring position. These steals are nice, but if williams gets more runs (which williams has by over 100!!) whats the point of the steals? 2595 hits williams had 2654 total, and thats missing some seasons in his prime due to militarry activity. 1742 rbi williams-1839 2070 walks i dont have williams numbers on walks onhand but... .297 batting avg williams-.344, and last player to hit .400 .433 ob9 .482 .602 slg .634 1.035 Ops you ready for this? 1.115
it has to be Barry Bonds
Enough said.
How the hell can Williams compete with that? i thnk ted competes with that just fine
i think ted wins
Lets Go patsox!
yay! sox win!!!
bambino-1918-2004
Rest In Pain ;-)
Sox FANatic001 wrote:just to throw my opion in, I say teddy Ballgame
On the defensive note, Bonds Probably does have the upper hand. I think though (correct me if i'm wrong) that i read somewhere that Williams was and still is one of the best players of the monster in left field at fenway. That wall can give some difficult bounces, and i think i read that williams learned how to handle them better than anyone else.
I think you are confusing Teddy with Cal Yaztremski. Yaz was a multiple Gold Glove winner. Teddy, well, was pretty much a DH playing left field. He was never considered a good outfielder, or even an above average outfielder.
Also Teddy stole 24 bases in his career. Please take a moment to think about that stat. The question is not who is the best hitter, obviously it's Ted, but the best player. When one takes offense, defense, and baserunning it's obviously not Ted Williams.
Sox FANatic001 wrote:just to throw my opion in, I say teddy Ballgame
On the defensive note, Bonds Probably does have the upper hand. I think though (correct me if i'm wrong) that i read somewhere that Williams was and still is one of the best players of the monster in left field at fenway. That wall can give some difficult bounces, and i think i read that williams learned how to handle them better than anyone else.
I think you are confusing Teddy with Cal Yaztremski. Yaz was a multiple Gold Glove winner. Teddy, well, was pretty much a DH playing left field. He was never considered a good outfielder, or even an above average outfielder.
Also Teddy stole 24 bases in his career. Please take a moment to think about that stat. The question is not who is the best hitter, obviously it's Ted, but the best player. When one takes offense, defense, and baserunning it's obviously not Ted Williams.
Ok, thanks for the info, i'd read it so long ago, that i must have gotten the names mixed up.
Lets Go patsox!
yay! sox win!!!
bambino-1918-2004
Rest In Pain ;-)
Sox FANatic001 wrote:just to throw my opion in, I say teddy Ballgame
On the defensive note, Bonds Probably does have the upper hand. I think though (correct me if i'm wrong) that i read somewhere that Williams was and still is one of the best players of the monster in left field at fenway. That wall can give some difficult bounces, and i think i read that williams learned how to handle them better than anyone else.
I think you are confusing Teddy with Cal Yaztremski. Yaz was a multiple Gold Glove winner. Teddy, well, was pretty much a DH playing left field. He was never considered a good outfielder, or even an above average outfielder.
Also Teddy stole 24 bases in his career. Please take a moment to think about that stat. The question is not who is the best hitter, obviously it's Ted, but the best player. When one takes offense, defense, and baserunning it's obviously not Ted Williams.
I've been reading on this subject for some time now (Williams & Bonds) And I have some arguments on this. I'm not up for a debate again though- took too much out of me when I didn't have a lot to take anyway.
If someone else is up for this debate, I have no problem divulging the secrets, however.
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by LCBOY » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:38 pm 
First base has always been a power position...I'd till take Bagwell before Thomas because of his good defense. There has never been a first baseman that combined the offense of a Gerhig, Foxx, Bagwell with the defense of a Keith Hernandez or J.T. Snow or a Hal Chase.
