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Postby Half Massed » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:46 am

Wow, those teachers took that way too far. I'm guessing these are young kids judging by the fact that they're playing with Legos in class. Using the Legotown as a teaching tool about Marxism or Communism is one thing, but doing what they did is quite another. :-P
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Postby Phatferd » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:44 am

To begin, I have to say that the fact that this is a private school, makes it a little different. I believe that if you are a Capitalist you would have to respect the fact that they can teach whatever they want. Private property is arguably the most important concept towards the Capitalist beliefs (free will is probably the most important concept). Because of this they have the right to project whatever crap they deem significant. The parents can take their children out of the school if they don't support these concepts. I don't think I need to go out on a strong limb assume most of the parents are Capitalists. I mean, let's face it, private school generally costs a lot of money and a majority of people with money have strong Capitalistic beliefs. I am sure this isn't going over too well over there.

On to my actual stance on this issue. I find one very obvious flaw in their logic for doing this. These teachers want to "teach" (I put that in quotes, because I think it's a pretty loose term in this instance) these children about equity. These children are grade school aged children. The article doesn't say how old they are, but I am assuming kindergarten to third grade, mainly because Legos are involved. When this so-called "Lego Community," was demolished, these teacher saw an opportunity to sell their ideas/concepts to these impressionable children.

Let's stop right there and think about it. Let it sink in for a moment or two.

One,
Two.

Alright, do you see where I am going with this? Isn't one of the main characteristics of a Capitalist to take advantage of situations/flaw/status quo/opportunities/etc...? What these teachers did was see an opportunity and ran with it. This is taught in Capitalism 101. It doesn't take an idiot, or teachers in Seattle, to realize this.

"A house is good because it is a community house."

"We should have equal houses. They should be standard sizes."

"It's important to have the same amount of power as other people over your building.' "


To me this is starting to sound a lot like Socialism. Hasn't history taught these people anything? There will never be a Utopian society that distributes wealth evenly and rationally. Someone always has to have power, which means control. We all know that this creates misconception and turmoil. Who is going to control these so-called "equal houses"? Are they suggesting that it will be self operated, managed and policed? This will all come full circle because someone will always try to take control and gain the power of the masses. Why is this? SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:04 am

First, as this is a private school, I have no problem with them teaching this lesson, any parents of children in this school have the option of pulling them out immidiately and putting them into the public school system.

Secondly, where is everyone reading that they are indoctrinating the kids by teaching only one set of conclusions. The article says that the teachers saw the legotown as an opportunity to teach a certain ideology, that would lead me to assume that before that they weren't teaching that ideology.

Third, I would never want me kid to be taught in a school like this, but then, I wouldn't want my kid being "indoctrinated" in a Christian school either.
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Postby knapplc » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:19 am

Art Vandelay wrote:Third, I would never want me kid to be taught in a school like this, but then, I wouldn't want my kid being "indoctrinated" in a Christian school either.


You never miss an opportunity to throw Christianity under the bus, do you Art?

It's good that there are some things we can always count on - Death, Taxes, Art bashing Christians.

It makes life just a little less complicated. ;-D
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Postby Mookie4ever » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:39 am

Just commenting on the article and not on the discussion that followed:

told to be skeptical of private property rights


That's fine. Teaching children to not just accept the norm and to think and question norms is fine.

the teachers at the private school wanted their students to learn that private property ownership is evil.


That is completely different from the first statement. Being skeptical of an idea and being taught that an idea is evil are quite different.

"Our intention was to promote a contrasting set of values: collectivity, collaboration, resource-sharing, and full democratic participation."


That's good. Again teaching the children to think for themselves by giving them information and an environment to think.

Not all of the students shared the teachers' anathema to private property ownership. "If I buy it, I own it," one child is quoted saying. The teachers then explored with the students concepts of fairness, equity, power, and other issues over a period of several months.


Sounds like an open discussion to me. I wonder how old the kids are? The "article" is suspiciously short on any facts.

The quotes sound good but the commentary seems full of pejorative language.

The description of the writer is:

Maureen Martin (mailto:martin@heartland.org), an attorney, is senior fellow for legal affairs at The Heartland Institute, a nonprofit organization based in Chicago that promotes free-market solutions to social and economic problems.


I checked out their website and the Heartland Institute seems very political with 3 issues: education, environment and health care. Their views on education are wierd. One of their main points is that parents should have the right to send their kids to whatever school they want and get equal funding and parents should be able to dictate what their kids learn. At the same time they believe that the capital markets have a place in education and advocate "market-based school reforms" whatever that is. The wrote a book about it:

Education and Capitalism: How Overcoming Our Fear of Markets and Economics Can Improve America's Schools

The Hoover Institution Press published in November Education and Capitalism: How Overcoming Our Fear of Markets and Economics Can Improve America’s Schools, by Heartland President Joseph L. Bast and Herbert J. Walberg, chairman of Heartland’s Board of Directors.



So anyways, take the article with a huge grain of salt and take it for the propaganda that it is.
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Postby RugbyD » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:02 am

valid points all around Mookie, but the critical shortcoming still exists that as far as we know, there was no structured market-based Legoland lesson to provide students with an education to compare with their commune experience. Merely surveying attitudes is not an accomplishment to that end.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:20 am

RugbyD wrote:valid points all around Mookie, but the critical shortcoming still exists that as far as we know, there was no structured market-based Legoland lesson to provide students with an education to compare with their commune experience. Merely surveying attitudes is not an accomplishment to that end.


Maybe but we don't know. It's possible that this is an incredible school and that the legos were community owned and the blocks were privately owned. I don't trust anything in this article. Without giving particulars, I have some experience with journalists and some of them I wouldn't trust a single thing that they write and when you are openly partisan like this woman I don't think that her article is even worth reading.

IMO the entire thing is bull for the simple fact that kids of that age are told to share. In my kids' schools if they don't share toys they get time outs and the toys are taken away. There is no private ownership in daycares and kindergardens especially with things like legos and blocks that are more community toys than a toy car or a book. The one thing that they teach all kids is to share.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:27 am

knapplc wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Third, I would never want me kid to be taught in a school like this, but then, I wouldn't want my kid being "indoctrinated" in a Christian school either.


You never miss an opportunity to throw Christianity under the bus, do you Art?

It's good that there are some things we can always count on - Death, Taxes, Art bashing Christians.

It makes life just a little less complicated. ;-D


This is the second time you've attacked me with this completely baseless charge. The first time was on the football side, and over there you conveniently ignored my reply...hopefully you won't do that again.

I have absolutely no problem with Christiantity whatsoever, and I didn't bring it into this thread, I used it as an example because I think it contrasts well with what is going on in the particular school being discussed here. The reason I put "indoctrinated" in quotes was because I don't believe what takes place in a private Christian school, or what was going on here are necessarily indoctrination, but that's a word that's been thrown around in this thread.

And how does me saying I wouldn't want me kids enrolled in a Christain school constitute throwing the religion under the bus? Would you be happy if I would have said Muslim School? or home schooled?

Every mention of a religion isn't an attack on it.
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Postby knapplc » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:39 am

Art Vandelay wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Third, I would never want me kid to be taught in a school like this, but then, I wouldn't want my kid being "indoctrinated" in a Christian school either.


You never miss an opportunity to throw Christianity under the bus, do you Art?

It's good that there are some things we can always count on - Death, Taxes, Art bashing Christians.

It makes life just a little less complicated. ;-D


Art Vandelay wrote:This is the second time you've attacked me with this completely baseless charge. The first time was on the football side, and over there you conveniently ignored my reply...hopefully you won't do that again.

Oh, you're such the innocent, aggrieved person, persecuted by my horrible, unwarranted abuse!

Please! ;-7

Whatever. Believe what you want to believe. You live in your own world, that much is clear. You can throw up your hands and claim innocence all you want. I'm not buying it.

Art Vandelay wrote:I have absolutely no problem with Christiantity whatsoever, and I didn't bring it into this thread, I used it as an example because I think it contrasts well with what is going on in the particular school being discussed here. The reason I put "indoctrinated" in quotes was because I don't believe what takes place in a private Christian school, or what was going on here are necessarily indoctrination, but that's a word that's been thrown around in this thread.


You didn't bring it up in this thread? Who did?

Art Vandelay wrote:And how does me saying I wouldn't want me kids enrolled in a Christain school throwing the religion under the bus? Would you be happy if I would have said Muslim School? or home schooled?

Every mention of a religion isn't an attack on it.


In your case, it seems to be. You clearly have a bee in your bonnet about it or you wouldn't keep bringing it up over and over. You claim to have "no problem" with Christianity but I have yet to see you say one positive thing about it. It's all veiled accusations and dark references, suppositions about the wisdom or clear-mindedness of those who believe in Christ. Do you think you are unbiased when it comes to Christianity? If you do, you’re fooling yourself.

I am a Christian and I insert Christianity into FAR fewer conversations than you do. Do the math on that.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:00 pm

knapplc wrote:You didn't bring it up in this thread? Who did?

First page, fourth post. Actually, I guess they were talking about intelligent design, so you've got me there. I brought it up, but not by attacking it.



knapplc wrote:In your case, it seems to be. You clearly have a bee in your bonnet about it or you wouldn't keep bringing it up over and over.

I don't know what you consider "over and over" but here, I searched for all of my posts with "christianity" in them http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/foru ... de=results there are three. This one, one in which I was basically defending the Christian themes in The Chronicles of Narnia, and one about the Jesus Camp documentary. And if you expand that to all of my posts with "christian" it jumps to four. Maybe you have me confused with someone else.

knapplc wrote:Do you think you are unbiased when it comes to Christianity?

Of course not, but then I don't there is such thing as an unbiased opinion.

edit: I thought that link showed the search results, apparently it just takes you to the search page.
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