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Postby TheRock » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:33 pm

Wow, I have to agree with Rugby, I threw up in my mouth a little.

Absolutely despicable. Not even a question of teaching both sides of the issue, these kids are far too young to form an educated opinion on socialism/capitalism. This is indoctrination, plain and simple. I'd be pulling my kid out of that school.
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Postby Coppermine » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:35 pm

Pedantic wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Absolutely Adequate wrote:Either way, kids will learn about competition. What's wrong with letting them learn about collaboration in a controlled environment? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you on the side of teaching "Intelligent Design" under the argument that the kids should learn both sides before making a decision?

My post advocated teaching different viewpoints. In this situation there is deliberately only one side being taught, which to me constitutes indoctrination. The quotes sound like they're coming from the mouths of brainwashed automatons. Regarding ID, I believe I advocated teaching it as religion or philosophy subject matter b/c it was not science.


It's a private school. Who cares?


I do agree with this; we can't have a double standard when it comes to private education. If parents don't want their kids learning this sort of thing, they can take them out. Otherwise, if you can tell them to stop teaching socialist principles, then you can tell Baptist schools to stop teaching creationism... and that certainly wouldn't go over well.

On the other hand, and I haven't really looked into this story so it's unclear what the teacher's true motives are, it just seems a little heavy for what I assume are grade school children given the Legotown, although the article doesn't say.

The point is, if a school doesn't receive federal or state funding, it can basically say what it wants... which I suppose is fine, assuming the children meet standardized testing requirement (speaking of reform, maybe that should be tackled first). But trying it dispel the principles of "class-based democracy" seems like a little much to be teaching kids.

Then again, if their parents are cool with it, so am I... as long as philosophical principles such as that are left out of public schools or at least only mentioned in a historical context.
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Postby RugbyD » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:52 pm

Pedantic wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Absolutely Adequate wrote:Either way, kids will learn about competition. What's wrong with letting them learn about collaboration in a controlled environment? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you on the side of teaching "Intelligent Design" under the argument that the kids should learn both sides before making a decision?

My post advocated teaching different viewpoints. In this situation there is deliberately only one side being taught, which to me constitutes indoctrination. The quotes sound like they're coming from the mouths of brainwashed automatons. Regarding ID, I believe I advocated teaching it as religion or philosophy subject matter b/c it was not science.


It's a private school. Who cares?

That doesn't make it right or any less messed up. I'm also the first person to defend their right not to do anything about it if they don't want to. Bottom line is that the purpose of a school is to expand minds and knowledge, not force-feed ideology with no structured alternative.
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Postby bigh0rt » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:18 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Pedantic wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Absolutely Adequate wrote:Either way, kids will learn about competition. What's wrong with letting them learn about collaboration in a controlled environment? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you on the side of teaching "Intelligent Design" under the argument that the kids should learn both sides before making a decision?

My post advocated teaching different viewpoints. In this situation there is deliberately only one side being taught, which to me constitutes indoctrination. The quotes sound like they're coming from the mouths of brainwashed automatons. Regarding ID, I believe I advocated teaching it as religion or philosophy subject matter b/c it was not science.


It's a private school. Who cares?

That doesn't make it right or any less messed up. I'm also the first person to defend their right not to do anything about it if they don't want to. Bottom line is that the purpose of a school is to expand minds and knowledge, not force-feed ideology with no structured alternative.


That's, of course, under the assumption that we're all using your definitions of "expanding minds and knowldege" and "force-feeding ideaology with no structured alternative"
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Postby RugbyD » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:27 pm

bigh0rt wrote:That's, of course, under the assumption that we're all using your definitions of "expanding minds and knowldege" and "force-feeding ideaology with no structured alternative"

generally speaking, A = offering competing viewpoints in a structured teaching environment, B = offering one lesson plan in a way that leads kids to a desired conclusion.

By all appearances thus far, this situation is B.
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Postby knapplc » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:35 pm

RugbyD wrote:generally speaking, A = offering competing viewpoints in a structured teaching environment, B = offering one lesson plan in a way that leads kids to a desired conclusion.

By all appearances thus far, this situation is B.


First off, let me say that I completely agree with your take on this "teaching." It is indroctination, and I disagree with it.



But let me ask this - isn't B how most kids are taught? It was when I went to school. There was a lesson plan and that's what we learned. If we had dissenting opinions or questions that deviated from the lesson plan, aside from two or three teachers in my high school, they were not tolerated or listened to.
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Postby bigh0rt » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:54 pm

RugbyD wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:That's, of course, under the assumption that we're all using your definitions of "expanding minds and knowldege" and "force-feeding ideaology with no structured alternative"

generally speaking, A = offering competing viewpoints in a structured teaching environment, B = offering one lesson plan in a way that leads kids to a desired conclusion.

By all appearances thus far, this situation is B.


In all likelihood, situation B is the exact way you were taught in school for the most part, too. I know it was how I was. The only difference is the content.
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Postby RugbyD » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm

knapplc wrote:
RugbyD wrote:generally speaking, A = offering competing viewpoints in a structured teaching environment, B = offering one lesson plan in a way that leads kids to a desired conclusion.

By all appearances thus far, this situation is B.


First off, let me say that I completely agree with your take on this "teaching." It is indroctination, and I disagree with it.



But let me ask this - isn't B how most kids are taught? It was when I went to school. There was a lesson plan and that's what we learned. If we had dissenting opinions or questions that deviated from the lesson plan, aside from two or three teachers in my high school, they were not tolerated or listened to.

yes and no. to be clear, we exclude things like math and science that have objective truths (ID discussion aside). when kids are younger they are taught that honest abe freed the slaves b/c that's pretty much what that level of comprehension will allow, even though its a good measure short of the full truth. my recollection of middle school and high school was that history and social science class es were about what happened and how things exist in their current and past structures. Subjectivity in this is limited, but there. There's definitely some differences in teaching where there can be disagreement on what is or is not the cause of effect of something, but i never saw much force to believe that something was right or wrong aside from slavery, be nice to people, etc. And there shouldn't have been; that's a parenting issue. For the record, 8yrs public school, 4 yrs private.
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Postby RugbyD » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:07 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:That's, of course, under the assumption that we're all using your definitions of "expanding minds and knowldege" and "force-feeding ideaology with no structured alternative"

generally speaking, A = offering competing viewpoints in a structured teaching environment, B = offering one lesson plan in a way that leads kids to a desired conclusion.

By all appearances thus far, this situation is B.


In all likelihood, situation B is the exact way you were taught in school for the most part, too. I know it was how I was. The only difference is the content.

not sure if it changes things, but B would be better stated as "offering one opinion to an audience unable to independently consider a competing opinion, with the objective of having the students adopt the offered opinion."
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Postby suppasonic » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:07 pm

Communism-You have two cows. The government takes both of them and gives you part of the milk.

Marxism- The proletarian cows unite and overthrow the bourgeoisie cowherds. The egalitarian democratic cow revolutionary state with the cow party as vanguard disintegrate over time.

Socialism- : You have two cows. The government takes one of them and gives it to your neighbor.
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