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Postby Madison » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:14 pm

TheRock wrote:I think we can say definitively that incest should be illegal. Not only is it repulsive to most of us, it's repulsive for a good reason.


Just to check because I'm curious, are you against gay marriage as well? From what you said, I'd say yes, but just want to make sure.

Two men together makes my stomach turn. Brother and sister isn't quite as bad, even more so when I most likely wouldn't even know they were brother and sister. No mistaking two guys.

If you think gay marriage is ok, then you might want to rethink your position on this, as it's basically the same thing. Or if you somehow see a difference, please share. :-)
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Postby glcmustliveon » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:32 pm

Phew, a lot of interesting stuff. First of all, studies have shown that we are attracted, at a subconscious level, to people with different Genotypes than us. How is this possible you ask? We smell others, particularily the opposite sex, and Pheromones carry genetic information about ourselves. ALso, its a cultural universal that brothers/sisters are taboo, and for this reason it doesnt matter whether it is legal or not, members in society in general won't practice sibling incest. The article on wikipedia explains a lot, albeit offering two sides of the equation. I'm in a biological Anthropology class, and I remember hearing that incest, not neccessarily between brother and sister, would work against the homozygous recessive type, all of the offspring with homozyous recessive traits would die, thus leading in a stronger presence of the dominant allele. On the other hand, so much of the early population would die that some suggest that the long term effects wouldnt be realized. Reading further suggests that evolutionary psychologists theorize that we have built in aversions to our siblings/parents.

For those of you against incest, where do you draw the line? Are cousins fair game, because in most cultures this happens frequently.

My personal belief is that it is unnatural for siblings to mate, this is from a religious perspective but there is evidence that we, as well as other species, are naturally unattractive to our siblings.

Therefore, it is not surprising that inbreeding is uncommon in nature, and most sexually reproducing species have mechanisms built in by natural selection to avoid mating with close kin. Pusey & Worf (1996) and Penn & Potts (1999) both have found evidence that some species possess evolved psychological aversions to inbreeding, via kin-recognition heuristics.

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Postby da1chipo » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:37 pm

In at least one regard we are / may be naturally not attracted to our siblings. As part of the immune system there are receptors on cells called MHCs, which allow cells to be marked for destruction or marked to be assisted in destroying an antigen. I recently read a study that concluded that people with dissimilar MHCs are more likely than people with similar MHCs to find each other attractive. In women the effect is more drastic, men will find women with similar MHCs more attractive than woman will find those men. Obviously, siblings have more similar MHCs.

A theory is that this evolved to prevent inbreeding, which increases the odds of a recessive genetic disease to come forth, and also limits genetic variability, which is good for humans as a species.
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Postby TheRock » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:41 pm

Madison wrote:
TheRock wrote:I think we can say definitively that incest should be illegal. Not only is it repulsive to most of us, it's repulsive for a good reason.


Just to check because I'm curious, are you against gay marriage as well? From what you said, I'd say yes, but just want to make sure.

Two men together makes my stomach turn. Brother and sister isn't quite as bad, even more so when I most likely wouldn't even know they were brother and sister. No mistaking two guys.

If you think gay marriage is ok, then you might want to rethink your position on this, as it's basically the same thing. Or if you somehow see a difference, please share. :-)


Wow, whole 'nuther can o' worms there, Mad. Let's stick to one debate for now...

I think they are different. I wold say incest is wrong because family relationships need to by definition be non-sexual, no exceptions. This is absolutely essential for any kind of a normal childhood. Just my opinion, I can't cite research on that one.

I think the verdict is still out on how gay marriage impacts society, kids, etc. But it does not change the very nature of children's relationships in the way that incest-rights would.
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Postby Coppermine » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:49 pm

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Postby Art Vandelay » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:54 pm

TheRock wrote:Well, we've arrived at a conundrum. Should individual freedoms (freedom to hook up with your sister) trump societal standards of "decency" whatever those are? What exactly is our criteria for what is allowable and what is not? Interesting point about bestiality, I actually wasn't aware it was illegal. I'm not sure we can say it should be illegal because animals can't actively voice their consent, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't consent to being sterilized, euthanized, groomed, carried around in Paris Hilton's handbag, or even owned in the first place, so I don't think we can use that as a standard.

I think we can say definitively that incest should be illegal. Not only is it repulsive to most of us, it's repulsive for a good reason. Let me attempt to explain. This will sound weird. But here goes. Because some thing need to be sacred. Not sure how else to say that.

Physical intimacy as we're discussing actually involves many things if you think about it. It begins as attraction, which may or may not be shared. Well, then there's the whole process of courtship, which often involves manipulation or deceit (admit it guys, you've done it). Then there's growing the relationship, emotions become involved, and in the overwhelming majority of cases, some kind of falling out and the relationship ends. NONE of those things are things you should go through with your sister.

Let me paint the picture a different way. My 12 year old daughter needs to know that certain males in her life are not out to get in her pants. Specifically, me and her brothers. When she ponders, as 12 year olds often do, who she will marry someday, we her parents should not volunteer "well, I saw your brother checking you out the other day". Sounds ridiculous, but as soon as we as a society decide incest is just one more area for individuals to express their freedoms, then all this becomes a very real possibility. She needs the security of knowing she is safe in her home from sexual advances or even thoughts of such.

You can debate whether it's harming you or not all you want, but you'd be missing the obvious point. What kind of world would it be for kids to grow up in if we were to allow this?


You make some very good arguments, but I think ultimately your point doesn't hold up to scrutiny. You seem to imply that if incest were legal, all of a sudden we would see a sharp increase in incest. I simply do not think that is the case. I would wager that there are very, very related couples who want to have sex with eachother but are abstaining because it is against the law.

Also, your argument about your 12 year old daughter isn't really relevant to this particular discussion because we are talking about incest among consenting adults. I don't think you'll find a single member at the cafe who would argue in favor of a 12 year and an adult have sex (with a few obvious exceptions). I would also like to think that if I had a 12 year old daughter, my next door neighbor, brother in law, etc. would not be trying to have sex with her, but I wouldn't want legislation to prevent people from having relationship based on thier proximity to one another or because because they were inlaws.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:57 pm

TheRock wrote:
Madison wrote:
TheRock wrote:I think we can say definitively that incest should be illegal. Not only is it repulsive to most of us, it's repulsive for a good reason.


Just to check because I'm curious, are you against gay marriage as well? From what you said, I'd say yes, but just want to make sure.

Two men together makes my stomach turn. Brother and sister isn't quite as bad, even more so when I most likely wouldn't even know they were brother and sister. No mistaking two guys.

If you think gay marriage is ok, then you might want to rethink your position on this, as it's basically the same thing. Or if you somehow see a difference, please share. :-)


Wow, whole 'nuther can o' worms there, Mad. Let's stick to one debate for now...

I think they are different. I wold say incest is wrong because family relationships need to by definition be non-sexual, no exceptions. This is absolutely essential for any kind of a normal childhood. Just my opinion, I can't cite research on that one.

I think the verdict is still out on how gay marriage impacts society, kids, etc. But it does not change the very nature of children's relationships in the way that incest-rights would.


Again, you are the only person in this thread who is looking at this from the perspective of incest between a related adult and child. I don't think anyone would defend that.
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Postby Madison » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:21 am

TheRock wrote:
Madison wrote:
TheRock wrote:I think we can say definitively that incest should be illegal. Not only is it repulsive to most of us, it's repulsive for a good reason.


Just to check because I'm curious, are you against gay marriage as well? From what you said, I'd say yes, but just want to make sure.

Two men together makes my stomach turn. Brother and sister isn't quite as bad, even more so when I most likely wouldn't even know they were brother and sister. No mistaking two guys.

If you think gay marriage is ok, then you might want to rethink your position on this, as it's basically the same thing. Or if you somehow see a difference, please share. :-)


Wow, whole 'nuther can o' worms there, Mad. Let's stick to one debate for now...

I think they are different. I wold say incest is wrong because family relationships need to by definition be non-sexual, no exceptions. This is absolutely essential for any kind of a normal childhood. Just my opinion, I can't cite research on that one.

I think the verdict is still out on how gay marriage impacts society, kids, etc. But it does not change the very nature of children's relationships in the way that incest-rights would.


Actually I asked this real quick in the thread on page 1. ;-) Figured it would really make people think before answering the question, and thus, lead to good discussion.

As to the "family relationships need to by definition be non-sexual", that would only apply to the household, correct? A cousin would then be fair game by that logic, or a brother/sister who haven't met until adulthood (like the ones in the story). So would that be acceptable if neither even met until they were both of age?

How would two gay guys raising a child be any more or less of a problem for the child than a married brother and sister?


And yes, for those scoring at home, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I personally don't think either (gay marriage or incest marriage) should be legal, but if we're going to allow gay marriage, then we have to allow incest marriage as there's no real difference in the two. From the studies posted so far, disease and such is not a problem, so that's out of the equation. If anything, incest marriage would not even be as big of an issue as gay marriage because it's not nearly as obvious. You see a man and a woman kiss in public and don't think twice about it. Even with incest marriage being legal, it still wouldn't cross anyone's mind. See two gay guys or two gay girls kissing or holding hands or whatever, and that will draw stares, emotions, and cause a reaction (even if it's just turning away so one doesn't have to see it). So again, if one is allowed, the other one has to be allowed as well. There has yet to be a solid reason as to why one is ok, and the other is not, but I'm curious to see if anyone can validate one while shooting down the other.

Party on! ;-D
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Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Postby TheRock » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:22 am

Art Vandelay wrote:
TheRock wrote:
Madison wrote:
TheRock wrote:I think we can say definitively that incest should be illegal. Not only is it repulsive to most of us, it's repulsive for a good reason.


Just to check because I'm curious, are you against gay marriage as well? From what you said, I'd say yes, but just want to make sure.

Two men together makes my stomach turn. Brother and sister isn't quite as bad, even more so when I most likely wouldn't even know they were brother and sister. No mistaking two guys.

If you think gay marriage is ok, then you might want to rethink your position on this, as it's basically the same thing. Or if you somehow see a difference, please share. :-)


Wow, whole 'nuther can o' worms there, Mad. Let's stick to one debate for now...

I think they are different. I wold say incest is wrong because family relationships need to by definition be non-sexual, no exceptions. This is absolutely essential for any kind of a normal childhood. Just my opinion, I can't cite research on that one.

I think the verdict is still out on how gay marriage impacts society, kids, etc. But it does not change the very nature of children's relationships in the way that incest-rights would.


Again, you are the only person in this thread who is looking at this from the perspective of incest between a related adult and child. I don't think anyone would defend that.


Not really. I'm talking about the attitudes we teach our children. Maybe more what pop culture teaches our children because we don't live in a vacuum. The very idea of sexual relations with a brother, uncle, cousin, anyone with whom there is an implied trust, even later in life, needs to be completely foreign to a child. The idea of "you could marry your brother when you grow up" needs to never be presented as an option. Look at the statistics of what happens to young kids when they are forced to grow up too quickly due to sexual abuse. It wrecks their lives in ways we do not yet begin to understand. And not just physical abuse, it's having to deal with concepts that distort their world view. They don't have the capacity to keep things in perspective that we do, their worlds are very small.

And you know that before long there would be incest rights groups mugging for the camera and demanding to be a protected class under the law. We'd throw them parades, and dedicate a national holiday to them. Schools would have to add that to their ever growing tolerance curriculum, and kids would hear that marrying within the family is just another lifestyle choice they can make when they grow up.

Nope. Already hard enough to grow up in this world, we don't need to add this to it.
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Postby glcmustliveon » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:32 am

The very idea of sexual relations with a brother, uncle, cousin, anyone with whom there is an implied trust, even later in life, needs to be completely foreign to a child.


Where do you draw the line though? Second Cousins? No family relationships? The fact of the matter is that as Americans, or westerners in general, our tolerance for incest is very, very low. However, in other cultures marrying cousins is commonplace. There is some overlap most if not all cultures consider sibling/parental relationships as a taboo.
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