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Is this cheating?

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Is this cheating?

Postby Kid C*** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:06 am

I'm in a ten team NL keeper league. I am the commish. Every year I exchange rosters with one owner and then notify the league that this has occurred. Then the league sends their rosters to me. This year I had arranged to switch rosters with owner A. Owner B called me during the day and left a message on my voicemail..."I know you've been trying to reach me (I had called him twice, but about getting a copy of the Superbowl)...I'm assuming you want to exchange rosters (we'd done this previously) call me and we can take care of it."

I called him and confirmed that I had already arranged to exchange rosters with owner A. We agreed that there was no real difference and agreed to exchange rosters. He started to name players on my roster. I confirmed them as he said them until it got patently ridiculous that he hadn't named one of his keepers. I called him on this and asked him to give me some of his keepers, and he stated that he hadn't decided who he was keeping. I told him that this was BS, and he laughed it off as some sort of joke. This is one of my best friends, and I hate to pursue this...but, did he cheat?
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Postby Diamond Miners » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:34 am

Cheat, depends on how you see things. He just seems to be a slick talking owner, gotta watch out for those. Do I agree with just switching teams like you do, not really. Do I fully understand what happepend? No.
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Postby orange12 » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:36 am

This story is slightly confusing so you'll have to excuse me for asking; when you say "exchange rosters", you're talking about telling another owner who your keepers are, right? Because for about half the story, I thought you meant you and another owner actually switch rosters every year.

If your friend explicitly said "I would like to exchange rosters information with you" then I think he should be obligated to uphold his end of the bargain. On the other hand, if he just started listing your players and sweet talked you into admitting which ones you're keeping, then he has no obligation whatsoever to return the favor.

Whether you should push the issue or not depends on how cool your friend is. If he's any kind of good friend (and decent person), then he would probably oblige and not feel offended if you leveled with him about upholding his end of the deal. If he's a jerk and might get offended if you pressed the issue, then I say press the issue harder. People like that make lousy friends and even worse fantasy owners so might as well burn the bridge sooner than later. :-D
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Postby Kid C*** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:57 am

Let me try and clarify...

Every year my league has cuts from a list of twenty three players to a final roster of 15 max.+ minor leaguers (5 max.). The date for this final cut is Feb 15. All players are frozen in their designated position on the draft board as you list them when submitted. The day before the league submits their cuts, the commish trades, exchanges, reveals (however you want to phrase it) his roster with another owner. It's done one player at a time (normally) each owner alternates. The owner in question called and claimed to be ready to do this official process. (The commish posts on the message board after this takes place and all other owners then submit their rosters. All rosters are then revealed simultaneously after all have been submitted.) The owner in question then proceeded to name my players, which I confirmed as he listed them. When he just kept going, I called him on it and the discussion was terminated. This is not about a casual exchange, but an official one which kicks off final cuts. In other words the other owner pretended to be the agent for exchanging rosters, but had no intention on following through with the procedure. He was only trying to solicit information under false pretenses. Should I consider that cheating?
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Postby JTWood » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:02 am

That's a pretty interesting system you have there.

Since he knew there was supposed to be a quid pro quo, and since he seems to have actively avoided holding up his end of the exchange, I would say that he has indeed cheated as it could give him an advantage.

Related thought: If he was supposed to have his keepers in yesterday, and he basically hasn't, isn't it appropriate to say that he kept none of his players?
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Postby jfg » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:29 am

Sounds like you have a whole league of owners who can't trust anyone farther than they can throw them if you have to resort to that system. I don't get the point.
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Postby Deuce » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:53 pm

Kid C*** wrote:Let me try and clarify...

Every year my league has cuts from a list of twenty three players to a final roster of 15 max.+ minor leaguers (5 max.). The date for this final cut is Feb 15. All players are frozen in their designated position on the draft board as you list them when submitted. The day before the league submits their cuts, the commish trades, exchanges, reveals (however you want to phrase it) his roster with another owner. It's done one player at a time (normally) each owner alternates. The owner in question called and claimed to be ready to do this official process. (The commish posts on the message board after this takes place and all other owners then submit their rosters. All rosters are then revealed simultaneously after all have been submitted.) The owner in question then proceeded to name my players, which I confirmed as he listed them. When he just kept going, I called him on it and the discussion was terminated. This is not about a casual exchange, but an official one which kicks off final cuts. In other words the other owner pretended to be the agent for exchanging rosters, but had no intention on following through with the procedure. He was only trying to solicit information under false pretenses. Should I consider that cheating?


Based on this statement:
YES, IMO he cheated.
However, I can't see how this rule is effective if only the commish and one other player are exchanging teams. How do you decide which team to trade with? Have you ever traded teams with the same owner, before you have completed a cycle of the whole league? If I were one of the owners that you had never traded with, I would say you are also cheating. It could be construed as collusion (the best reason for veto in most leagues).
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Postby Cooner » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:20 pm

i believe the point is that no one should know who others are keeping before making their own decisions.

Here's what I think you should do.

1. publish your roster to the entire league. as commish, sometimes you have to accept that you have to lose a little advantage for the sake of fairness.

2. explain what happened to the league. Explain that you're making things fair for all by publishing your roster.

3. Ask the other owner (in private if you value his friendship) not to do that in the future, because now he's screwed you over. If he's an actual friend, he'll probably be upset about it. If he's a jackass about it, THEN ask, in public to the league, if the league thinks there should be some punishment for attempting to gain additional information on the pretext of following league rules, but not actually following through. If so, losing one keeper this year sounds fair and appropriate (as in, he can only keep a max of 14 this year).

4. Find a new way to do keeper revelations in the future.
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Postby mission27 » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:35 am

You do this to prevent you from changing your keepers after seeing others keeper right? If so i think this would be a better system:

Give him a sealed envelope with your roster on it, make sure he does not open it until the rosters are posted, when he does, he will see that your keepers are the same as before you viewed the keeper list. This will make for a good system, as long as you trust the person you give them to.

Also, this does seem like cheating, but mabey not intentional. You should be allowed to view his keepers because he know yours. Bur don't ruin a league, or worse a friendship over this. Just try to slightly modify the system.
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Postby mission27 » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:39 am

Also if this system is to difficult, just set up a meeting time, have all the owners submit keepers in a sealed envelope into a hat. Pick them out one at a time, passing the hat around possibly to ensure fairness. Read out the keepers and show them to the rest of the league. This way no one gains an unfair advantages. this only works in person though.

Or just set a deadline, and allow any one to revel keepers up to that point. That way they have a choice and it is no big deal.
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