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Postby josebach » Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:02 pm

chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:I'm not sure if I would have been a Christian if I was born in the Middle East or not, but that doesn't mean that Islam is right just because I believe it.


That's just what the other 4 billion people on the planet say about Christianity.

Good talk. ;-D
Do you have any comments on the validity or the non-Christian historical records that reference Jesus and Christianity?


Considering the technolgy available 2,000 years ago, and the lack of writing implements and/or paper, I wouldn't put a significant amout of faith or belief in anything written that long ago. You know how the grape vine works, right? Essentially that's how stories were told back then. Word of mouth is hardly the most efficient way of remembering things and if the gospel of Jesus wasn't written for 30-40 years after his death like what's estimated, how much truth survived?

In case I didn't mention it, I was raised Christian, went to church througout my childhood and attended a Christian middle/high school. I used to think the way you do and let me just say that neither one of us is going to change the other's mind. I've always had doubt, but only when I was able to truly look at Christianity objectively (like you may look at other religions) was I able to come to the conclusion I've reached. You have to conquer your fear of Christianity not being true before you can reach true objectivity in my opinion. Fear was always the biggest hurdle for me in questioning my faith. I'm very glad that I did as now I'm finally being honest with myself. There's nothing at all wrong with saying "I don't know." I realize that now. :-)

(Sorry if I sound like a broken record, Knapp. ;-) )
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Postby chadlincoln » Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:42 pm

josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:I'm not sure if I would have been a Christian if I was born in the Middle East or not, but that doesn't mean that Islam is right just because I believe it.


That's just what the other 4 billion people on the planet say about Christianity.

Good talk. ;-D
Do you have any comments on the validity or the non-Christian historical records that reference Jesus and Christianity?


Considering the technolgy available 2,000 years ago, and the lack of writing implements and/or paper, I wouldn't put a significant amout of faith or belief in anything written that long ago. You know how the grape vine works, right? Essentially that's how stories were told back then. Word of mouth is hardly the most efficient way of remembering things and if the gospel of Jesus wasn't written for 30-40 years after his death like what's estimated, how much truth survived?

In case I didn't mention it, I was raised Christian, went to church througout my childhood and attended a Christian middle/high school. I used to think the way you do and let me just say that neither one of us is going to change the other's mind. I've always had doubt, but only when I was able to truly look at Christianity objectively (like you may look at other religions) was I able to come to the conclusion I've reached. You have to conquer your fear of Christianity not being true before you can reach true objectivity in my opinion. Fear was always the biggest hurdle for me in questioning my faith. I'm very glad that I did as now I'm finally being honest with myself. There's nothing at all wrong with saying "I don't know." I realize that now. :-)

(Sorry if I sound like a broken record, Knapp. ;-) )
Doubts help you work through what you believe. The key for me was intelligent design of the universe/human body.
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Postby josebach » Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:57 pm

chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:I'm not sure if I would have been a Christian if I was born in the Middle East or not, but that doesn't mean that Islam is right just because I believe it.


That's just what the other 4 billion people on the planet say about Christianity.

Good talk. ;-D
Do you have any comments on the validity or the non-Christian historical records that reference Jesus and Christianity?


Considering the technolgy available 2,000 years ago, and the lack of writing implements and/or paper, I wouldn't put a significant amout of faith or belief in anything written that long ago. You know how the grape vine works, right? Essentially that's how stories were told back then. Word of mouth is hardly the most efficient way of remembering things and if the gospel of Jesus wasn't written for 30-40 years after his death like what's estimated, how much truth survived?

In case I didn't mention it, I was raised Christian, went to church througout my childhood and attended a Christian middle/high school. I used to think the way you do and let me just say that neither one of us is going to change the other's mind. I've always had doubt, but only when I was able to truly look at Christianity objectively (like you may look at other religions) was I able to come to the conclusion I've reached. You have to conquer your fear of Christianity not being true before you can reach true objectivity in my opinion. Fear was always the biggest hurdle for me in questioning my faith. I'm very glad that I did as now I'm finally being honest with myself. There's nothing at all wrong with saying "I don't know." I realize that now. :-)

(Sorry if I sound like a broken record, Knapp. ;-) )
Doubts help you work through what you believe. The key for me was intelligent design of the universe/human body.


I think intelligent design is a distinct possibility. Irreducible complexity is an extremely difficult thing to explain using traditional evolutionary theories. Even if intelligent design turns out to be true, it in no way validates the Bible, however. With as infinitely complex as the physical world is, why would the spiritual world be as simple as it appears in the Bible? Isn't that more likely just a reflection of man's limited knowledge at the time the Bible was written?

I also wanted to make clear that just because a person doesn't believe in the Bible or Christianity, in no way does that mean they're without hope.
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Postby chadlincoln » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:24 pm

josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:I'm not sure if I would have been a Christian if I was born in the Middle East or not, but that doesn't mean that Islam is right just because I believe it.


That's just what the other 4 billion people on the planet say about Christianity.

Good talk. ;-D
Do you have any comments on the validity or the non-Christian historical records that reference Jesus and Christianity?


Considering the technolgy available 2,000 years ago, and the lack of writing implements and/or paper, I wouldn't put a significant amout of faith or belief in anything written that long ago. You know how the grape vine works, right? Essentially that's how stories were told back then. Word of mouth is hardly the most efficient way of remembering things and if the gospel of Jesus wasn't written for 30-40 years after his death like what's estimated, how much truth survived?

In case I didn't mention it, I was raised Christian, went to church througout my childhood and attended a Christian middle/high school. I used to think the way you do and let me just say that neither one of us is going to change the other's mind. I've always had doubt, but only when I was able to truly look at Christianity objectively (like you may look at other religions) was I able to come to the conclusion I've reached. You have to conquer your fear of Christianity not being true before you can reach true objectivity in my opinion. Fear was always the biggest hurdle for me in questioning my faith. I'm very glad that I did as now I'm finally being honest with myself. There's nothing at all wrong with saying "I don't know." I realize that now. :-)

(Sorry if I sound like a broken record, Knapp. ;-) )
Doubts help you work through what you believe. The key for me was intelligent design of the universe/human body.


I think intelligent design is a distinct possibility. Irreducible complexity is an extremely difficult thing to explain using traditional evolutionary theories. Even if intelligent design turns out to be true, it in no way validates the Bible, however. With as infinitely complex as the physical world is, why would the spiritual world be as simple as it appears in the Bible? Isn't that more likely just a reflection of man's limited knowledge at the time the Bible was written?

I also wanted to make clear that just because a person doesn't believe in the Bible or Christianity, in no way does that mean they're without hope.
Intelligent design proves there is a creator. Now, what type of creator is another question to look at. Does he care about his creation? Is he active or did he just create it and lets it go however?

Hope in what? What gives you hope? Isn't hope looking forward to something you know will happen? No God=no eternity. You cease to exist when you die. Where is the hope in that?
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Postby josebach » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:42 pm

chadlincoln wrote:Intelligent design proves there is a creator. Now, what type of creator is another question to look at. Does he care about his creation? Is he active or did he just create it and lets it go however?


Intelligent design is a theory, not a fact. Until it's a fact, it hasn't proven anything.

To answer your question, if God does exist, I don't think our minds are even capable of understanding him. His intelligence would be so far superior to ours it would be like my cat trying to understand me.
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Postby chadlincoln » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:44 pm

josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:Intelligent design proves there is a creator. Now, what type of creator is another question to look at. Does he care about his creation? Is he active or did he just create it and lets it go however?


Intelligent design is a theory, not a fact. Until it's a fact, it hasn't proven anything.

To answer your question, if God does exist, I don't think our minds are even capable of understanding him. His intelligence would be so far superior to ours it would be like my cat trying to understand me.
The building that you're in, how do you know that building didn't happen by chance? Or did it?
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Postby josebach » Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:55 pm

chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:Intelligent design proves there is a creator. Now, what type of creator is another question to look at. Does he care about his creation? Is he active or did he just create it and lets it go however?


Intelligent design is a theory, not a fact. Until it's a fact, it hasn't proven anything.

To answer your question, if God does exist, I don't think our minds are even capable of understanding him. His intelligence would be so far superior to ours it would be like my cat trying to understand me.
The building that you're in, how do you know that building didn't happen by chance? Or did it?


Throw 52 cards up in the air and mark exactly where each card lands. Now try to repeat it. It may take 5 billion attempts for it to happen again or it may never happen again. That doesn't change the fact that it happened the first time. Don't turn this into a debate on intelligent design. I already admitted intelligent design may be possible, but if it is, it in no way validates the Bible. As I said before, I know where you're coming from and I"m not going to change your mind. I realize this. The only thing I can recommend is that if you really want to continue this train of thought, you have to be willing to accept the possibility that the Bible is just a book written by man. If you're not willing to accept that possibility, I believe you will ultimately be limited in what you'll be able to learn. Why? Because your mind will be closed to other possibilities.

I'm really done this time. Good talk!
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Postby Coppermine » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:28 pm

I wish I were born in ancient Rome where I'd have to keep track of about 15 different gods... and it would be ok because it would before Jesus!
If you're a battery, you're either working or you're dead....
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Postby BritSox » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:15 am

chadlincoln wrote:The building that you're in, how do you know that building didn't happen by chance? Or did it?


How do you know it exists at all? :-[
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Postby chadlincoln » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:37 pm

josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:Intelligent design proves there is a creator. Now, what type of creator is another question to look at. Does he care about his creation? Is he active or did he just create it and lets it go however?


Intelligent design is a theory, not a fact. Until it's a fact, it hasn't proven anything.

To answer your question, if God does exist, I don't think our minds are even capable of understanding him. His intelligence would be so far superior to ours it would be like my cat trying to understand me.
The building that you're in, how do you know that building didn't happen by chance? Or did it?


Throw 52 cards up in the air and mark exactly where each card lands. Now try to repeat it. It may take 5 billion attempts for it to happen again or it may never happen again. That doesn't change the fact that it happened the first time. Don't turn this into a debate on intelligent design. I already admitted intelligent design may be possible, but if it is, it in no way validates the Bible. As I said before, I know where you're coming from and I"m not going to change your mind. I realize this. The only thing I can recommend is that if you really want to continue this train of thought, you have to be willing to accept the possibility that the Bible is just a book written by man. If you're not willing to accept that possibility, I believe you will ultimately be limited in what you'll be able to learn. Why? Because your mind will be closed to other possibilities.

I'm really done this time. Good talk!
I only brought up intelligent design because you mentioned what made you believe/not believe. Intelligent design is what really strengthened my faith.
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