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Postby Madison » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:40 pm

Coppermine wrote:
Madison wrote:
Believe me, the bowling thing isn't a threat though :-D . Most people think bowlers are old, bald, have huge beer guts, and cannot even bend over to tie their own shoes. Does it get any worse (or more inaccurate) than that? :-b


Well, in all fairness, it is one of the few sports where the competitors routinely smoke and/or drink alcohol while competing :-b

Ever see Kingpin?


Yes, I've seen Kingpin. Not really a fan of it. Some funny moments, some flat out gross ones.

There are other sports where people smoke and drink while playing them (golf, darts, billiards, etc). However, professional bowlers are not allowed to smoke or drink while competing (much like many other sports). Baseball players smoke and drink too, just not during a game. No different than some bowlers ;-) .
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Postby josebach » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:07 pm

The earliest estimate of the 4 gospels being written was 3-4 decades after Jesus' crucifiction. Unless someone was taking dictation while Jesus spoke, I have a hard time the "quotes" that were attributed to Jesus were especially accurate. 30-40 years in those days was also just long enough to ensure that everybody that actually new Jesus was dead and buried and they could say whatever they wanted about supposed miracles and there would be no one there to refute it.
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Postby Coppermine » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:46 pm

Madison wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
Madison wrote:
Believe me, the bowling thing isn't a threat though :-D . Most people think bowlers are old, bald, have huge beer guts, and cannot even bend over to tie their own shoes. Does it get any worse (or more inaccurate) than that? :-b


Well, in all fairness, it is one of the few sports where the competitors routinely smoke and/or drink alcohol while competing :-b

Ever see Kingpin?


Yes, I've seen Kingpin. Not really a fan of it. Some funny moments, some flat out gross ones.

There are other sports where people smoke and drink while playing them (golf, darts, billiards, etc). However, professional bowlers are not allowed to smoke or drink while competing (much like many other sports). Baseball players smoke and drink too, just not during a game. No different than some bowlers ;-) .


Yeah, I'm just messin' with ya Mad... and Kingpin really wasn't that good except for Bill Murray.

I like bowling; I like the shoes. :-b
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Postby chadlincoln » Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:24 pm

josebach wrote:The earliest estimate of the 4 gospels being written was 3-4 decades after Jesus' crucifiction. Unless someone was taking dictation while Jesus spoke, I have a hard time the "quotes" that were attributed to Jesus were especially accurate. 30-40 years in those days was also just long enough to ensure that everybody that actually new Jesus was dead and buried and they could say whatever they wanted about supposed miracles and there would be no one there to refute it.
The people who wrote it were still alive when they wrote it (as stupid as that sounds) and so too were those who objected and had Jesus crucified. Understanding the relationship that those who wrote the gospels had with Jesus, you have to have a grasp of the Rabbi/disciple relationship which Jesus and His disciples had. To be selected as a disciple by a Rabbi is like making it to the NBA by today's terms. They were with Jesus day and night for three years studying every one of His teachings with more dedication than the English language can give clarification to. That is another reason why I trust that the gospels are clear and pass on a realistic and correct meaning to the words Jesus said in the moments He said them.
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Postby josebach » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:09 am

chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:The earliest estimate of the 4 gospels being written was 3-4 decades after Jesus' crucifiction. Unless someone was taking dictation while Jesus spoke, I have a hard time the "quotes" that were attributed to Jesus were especially accurate. 30-40 years in those days was also just long enough to ensure that everybody that actually new Jesus was dead and buried and they could say whatever they wanted about supposed miracles and there would be no one there to refute it.
The people who wrote it were still alive when they wrote it (as stupid as that sounds) and so too were those who objected and had Jesus crucified. Understanding the relationship that those who wrote the gospels had with Jesus, you have to have a grasp of the Rabbi/disciple relationship which Jesus and His disciples had. To be selected as a disciple by a Rabbi is like making it to the NBA by today's terms. They were with Jesus day and night for three years studying every one of His teachings with more dedication than the English language can give clarification to. That is another reason why I trust that the gospels are clear and pass on a realistic and correct meaning to the words Jesus said in the moments He said them.


As I said before, they aren't sure who actually wrote the 4 main gospels. For the sake of argument, however, let's say the 4 gospels were actually written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Of those, only Mathew and John actually knew Jesus right? So essentially, 2 billion people base their entire belief system on what a mere 2 men wrote 2 thousand years ago 30-40 years after Jesus actually died.

I guess that's my entire point and I'll leave it alone after that. Everything Christians believe about the cardinal points of Christianity comes from the Bible. When it comes right down to it, Christians have faith in the Bible, not Jesus. If you've researched the historical/secular origins of the Bible and STILL come to the conclusion that all 66 books in the Bible were each written under the direct influence of God than I'll just have to say we reached a different conclusion.
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Postby chadlincoln » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:20 am

josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:The earliest estimate of the 4 gospels being written was 3-4 decades after Jesus' crucifiction. Unless someone was taking dictation while Jesus spoke, I have a hard time the "quotes" that were attributed to Jesus were especially accurate. 30-40 years in those days was also just long enough to ensure that everybody that actually new Jesus was dead and buried and they could say whatever they wanted about supposed miracles and there would be no one there to refute it.
The people who wrote it were still alive when they wrote it (as stupid as that sounds) and so too were those who objected and had Jesus crucified. Understanding the relationship that those who wrote the gospels had with Jesus, you have to have a grasp of the Rabbi/disciple relationship which Jesus and His disciples had. To be selected as a disciple by a Rabbi is like making it to the NBA by today's terms. They were with Jesus day and night for three years studying every one of His teachings with more dedication than the English language can give clarification to. That is another reason why I trust that the gospels are clear and pass on a realistic and correct meaning to the words Jesus said in the moments He said them.


As I said before, they aren't sure who actually wrote the 4 main gospels. For the sake of argument, however, let's say the 4 gospels were actually written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Of those, only Mathew and John actually knew Jesus right? So essentially, 2 billion people base their entire belief system on what a mere 2 men wrote 2 thousand years ago 30-40 years after Jesus actually died.

I guess that's my entire point and I'll leave it alone after that. Everything Christians believe about the cardinal points of Christianity comes from the Bible. When it comes right down to it, Christians have faith in the Bible, not Jesus. If you've researched the historical/secular origins of the Bible and STILL come to the conclusion that all 66 books in the Bible were each written under the direct influence of God than I'll just have to say we reached a different conclusion.
Are you skeptical about every historical document?
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Postby josebach » Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:40 am

chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:The earliest estimate of the 4 gospels being written was 3-4 decades after Jesus' crucifiction. Unless someone was taking dictation while Jesus spoke, I have a hard time the "quotes" that were attributed to Jesus were especially accurate. 30-40 years in those days was also just long enough to ensure that everybody that actually new Jesus was dead and buried and they could say whatever they wanted about supposed miracles and there would be no one there to refute it.
The people who wrote it were still alive when they wrote it (as stupid as that sounds) and so too were those who objected and had Jesus crucified. Understanding the relationship that those who wrote the gospels had with Jesus, you have to have a grasp of the Rabbi/disciple relationship which Jesus and His disciples had. To be selected as a disciple by a Rabbi is like making it to the NBA by today's terms. They were with Jesus day and night for three years studying every one of His teachings with more dedication than the English language can give clarification to. That is another reason why I trust that the gospels are clear and pass on a realistic and correct meaning to the words Jesus said in the moments He said them.


As I said before, they aren't sure who actually wrote the 4 main gospels. For the sake of argument, however, let's say the 4 gospels were actually written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Of those, only Mathew and John actually knew Jesus right? So essentially, 2 billion people base their entire belief system on what a mere 2 men wrote 2 thousand years ago 30-40 years after Jesus actually died.

I guess that's my entire point and I'll leave it alone after that. Everything Christians believe about the cardinal points of Christianity comes from the Bible. When it comes right down to it, Christians have faith in the Bible, not Jesus. If you've researched the historical/secular origins of the Bible and STILL come to the conclusion that all 66 books in the Bible were each written under the direct influence of God than I'll just have to say we reached a different conclusion.
Are you skeptical about every historical document?


To a certain extent "yes". Everybody knows that history changes depending on who tells it. With the Bible it's that much worse because it talks of walking on water, raising the dead and God and the Devil communicating directly with people... all things that have never been witnessed in this history of mankind. Let me ask you a question. Did you ever research the origins of the Bible from a historical/secular and not a religious standpoint? Have you ever visited atheist websites and researched the counter to your argument? The only way you can look at an issue objectively is if you research both sides of it. Why don't you believe in Islam? Would you still be a Christian had you been born in the Middle East?
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Postby chadlincoln » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:51 pm

josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
josebach wrote:The earliest estimate of the 4 gospels being written was 3-4 decades after Jesus' crucifiction. Unless someone was taking dictation while Jesus spoke, I have a hard time the "quotes" that were attributed to Jesus were especially accurate. 30-40 years in those days was also just long enough to ensure that everybody that actually new Jesus was dead and buried and they could say whatever they wanted about supposed miracles and there would be no one there to refute it.
The people who wrote it were still alive when they wrote it (as stupid as that sounds) and so too were those who objected and had Jesus crucified. Understanding the relationship that those who wrote the gospels had with Jesus, you have to have a grasp of the Rabbi/disciple relationship which Jesus and His disciples had. To be selected as a disciple by a Rabbi is like making it to the NBA by today's terms. They were with Jesus day and night for three years studying every one of His teachings with more dedication than the English language can give clarification to. That is another reason why I trust that the gospels are clear and pass on a realistic and correct meaning to the words Jesus said in the moments He said them.


As I said before, they aren't sure who actually wrote the 4 main gospels. For the sake of argument, however, let's say the 4 gospels were actually written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Of those, only Mathew and John actually knew Jesus right? So essentially, 2 billion people base their entire belief system on what a mere 2 men wrote 2 thousand years ago 30-40 years after Jesus actually died.

I guess that's my entire point and I'll leave it alone after that. Everything Christians believe about the cardinal points of Christianity comes from the Bible. When it comes right down to it, Christians have faith in the Bible, not Jesus. If you've researched the historical/secular origins of the Bible and STILL come to the conclusion that all 66 books in the Bible were each written under the direct influence of God than I'll just have to say we reached a different conclusion.
Are you skeptical about every historical document?


To a certain extent "yes". Everybody knows that history changes depending on who tells it. With the Bible it's that much worse because it talks of walking on water, raising the dead and God and the Devil communicating directly with people... all things that have never been witnessed in this history of mankind. Let me ask you a question. Did you ever research the origins of the Bible from a historical/secular and not a religious standpoint? Have you ever visited atheist websites and researched the counter to your argument? The only way you can look at an issue objectively is if you research both sides of it. Why don't you believe in Islam? Would you still be a Christian had you been born in the Middle East?
I do look at it and have. I have examined non-Christian documents that talk of Jesus and who He was that we also take Roman historical records from. Archeology also uncovers and shows many Biblical narratives to be true and cities in the exact place talked about in the Bible. The prophecies alone about Jesus are amazing and cannot be coincidence. I've debated with atheists numerous times on their points. I don't deal with general points. I deal with specific people's points and issues. I'm not sure if I would have been a Christian if I was born in the Middle East or not, but that doesn't mean that Islam is right just because I believe it.
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Postby josebach » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:14 pm

chadlincoln wrote:I'm not sure if I would have been a Christian if I was born in the Middle East or not, but that doesn't mean that Islam is right just because I believe it.


That's just what the other 4 billion people on the planet say about Christianity.

Good talk. ;-D
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Postby chadlincoln » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:36 pm

josebach wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:I'm not sure if I would have been a Christian if I was born in the Middle East or not, but that doesn't mean that Islam is right just because I believe it.


That's just what the other 4 billion people on the planet say about Christianity.

Good talk. ;-D
Do you have any comments on the validity or the non-Christian historical records that reference Jesus and Christianity?
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