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Greatest Left Handed Pitcher Ever?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Who is the greatest Left Handed Pitcher ever?

Lefty Grove
14
21%
Sandy Koufax
24
35%
Steve Carlton
2
3%
Warren Spahn
13
19%
Carl Hubbell
1
1%
Randy Johnson
12
18%
Shawn Estes
2
3%
 
Total votes : 68

Postby Arlo » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:47 am

wrveres wrote:
Arlo wrote:Then again, if I could pick one LHP to build a team around, the choice would be ...


Ruth! :-D


you could just make him the closer. 8-o He would be perfect for it.

and somehow I think thats cheatin'

There's a thought. He does have four career saves... :-?

Cheatin'? Who, me? :-D
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Postby Arlo » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:28 am

LCBOY wrote:Spahn was defintely one of the greatest lefties in terms of career value. The guy pitched forever it seemed.

True indeed.

Spahn and Sain and pray for rain! ;-D
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Postby Swinger » Sat Nov 29, 2003 5:41 pm

Koufax gets my vote. A longer career is not neccessarily a better career.
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Postby LCBOY » Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:02 pm

Swinger wrote:Koufax gets my vote. A longer career is not neccessarily a better career.


Not true. Spahn had more wins after age 35 then Koufax did in his entire career (187 to 165). Please think about that for a moment. At an age when Koufax was long retired Spahn was still winning games. After age 35, Spahn had seven 20-win seasons. Please think about that for a moment. However, Spahn never had individual seasons like Koufax. Koufax had a much higher "peak" value but Spahn blows koufax out of the water in "career" value.

"Peak" value is like height and "career" value is like weight. If one person is 6'5" and 180 pounds and another person is 6'4" and 450 pounds, the second person is not taller than the first person, no matter who much the weighs. That was Warren Spahn. He was the short person that weighed a lot. His career "weight" was huge but his career "height" was not.
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Postby Arlo » Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:20 am

LCBOY wrote:"Peak" value is like height and "career" value is like weight. If one person is 6'5" and 180 pounds and another person is 6'4" and 450 pounds, the second person is not taller than the first person, no matter who much the weighs. That was Warren Spahn. He was the short person that weighed a lot. His career "weight" was huge but his career "height" was not.

Interesting analogy! ;-D
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Postby DK » Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:27 am

LCBOY wrote: He was the short person that weighed a lot.


Don Zimmer? :D
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Postby mikcou » Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:40 pm

LCBOY wrote:
Swinger wrote:Koufax gets my vote. A longer career is not neccessarily a better career.


Not true. Spahn had more wins after age 35 then Koufax did in his entire career (187 to 165). Please think about that for a moment. At an age when Koufax was long retired Spahn was still winning games. After age 35, Spahn had seven 20-win seasons. Please think about that for a moment. However, Spahn never had individual seasons like Koufax. Koufax had a much higher "peak" value but Spahn blows koufax out of the water in "career" value.

"Peak" value is like height and "career" value is like weight. If one person is 6'5" and 180 pounds and another person is 6'4" and 450 pounds, the second person is not taller than the first person, no matter who much the weighs. That was Warren Spahn. He was the short person that weighed a lot. His career "weight" was huge but his career "height" was not.


I agree ;-D ;-)
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Postby Tavish » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:38 am

Since it was brought up in the main forum I thought I would throw my thoughts out here.

Right now Grove gets a slight edge over RJ, but with one more season like his current one I think they would pull into a dead heat. Spahn I would put a distant 3rd and Koufax ranks closer to Hubbell than to the top 3.

Grove gets the edge for overall longevity and a higher peak season, Johnson gets the edge in domination and a longer peak. Grove has a slightly higher winning percentage, but pitched on much better teams (only played on one team with a losing season in his career). Grove led the league in ERA an amazing 9 times, Johnson led the league 4 times (working on his 5th), finishing second twice (once to a sickening Pedro season). Grove led the league in K/9 5 seasons, RJ 9 seasons.

Career comparison

<pre> Win% WHIP K/9 ERA+
Lefty .669 1.28 5.17 148
RJ .660 1.18 11.16 143
</pre>

This is without the current season. RJ should slightly close the gap in ERA+ while losing abit of ground in the Win% (he will finish around .500 on a team playing .300 ball).

It will take another season of RJ leading the league in ERA/Ks and most likely take a strong win% for him to overtake Grove IMO, but it certainly can be done. The gap between the two isn't all that large.
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Postby LBJackal » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:34 am

Grove blows everybodt else out of the water. His ERA+ is so much better then everybody elses on this list it's almost foolish to say anybody is worth mentioning against him in terms of career, other than RJ. 3.06 ERA at a time when the league ERA was 4.54? Insane. Koufax's 2.76 is great too, but the league ERA was 3.63 when he played, so 2.76 isn't as good as it may seem. Even if he played for 5 more years to match Grove's 17, he wouldn't be as good. It's not because his career was short, he simply wasn't nearly as good as Grove.

If the Big Unit (I always feel dirty calling him that) can have a few more years like this one, then he might push for a tie with Grove. That's the only other possibility I can see........
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Postby WhiteHot » Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:12 am

You left out Johan Santana and Oliver Perez.
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