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Postby Pogotheostrich » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:29 pm

Madison wrote:
Transmogrifier wrote:
Madison wrote:
Transmogrifier wrote:--get this!!!--the Devil Rays do.


I told you someone might come out from nowhere! :-B

It's actually not a big surprise to me, I had heard that Tampa was considering going after Sheffield, so why not Manny instead?


I'm getting excited. Imagine what we could do with that 17 mill freed up? I thought there were only a few potential suckers, but it seems like there are more.

Don't get me wrong, Manny is a great, great hitter. But that's all. He's a virus in the clubhouse and a horrible fielder.


More like 20.5 million freed up. He's got 5 years, 104 million left. :-B

Anyway, I'm sticking by my prediction that someone will pick him up.


I doubt anyone picks him up. Why get Manny when you should be able to get Vlad for the same amount or less?
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Postby Madison » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:42 pm

GreenRider--I agree that 14-16 million per year sounds about right in this economy. The big thing is that, this is a young superstud that you can build an entire team around. I expect there to be a bidding war and where it will stop is unknown. It would not come as a shock to me if the bidding went up to 20 million and beyond. Not only can you build an offense around Vlad, but it shows the fans that you want to win. Vlad's ability also draws fans. So basically, more fans=more revenue. 20 million per season is not out of the question when it comes to a player of this magnitude.

Pogo--Why take a risk on not getting Vlad, if you can afford the 20 million on Manny? The bidding could hit 20 million, and they still might not get him. There's a guaranteed 5 year, 104 million, Manny Ramirez on the table right now. Or they can gamble. I say that someone will take it.
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Postby ramble2 » Thu Oct 30, 2003 6:00 pm

nsulham wrote:
I don't disagree with you on that but what I am saying is that it's not a scenario where Manny would return and feel "betrayed" because his team tried to give him away, and thus be upset about it.

Manny had a hand in this so if he returns pissed off and upset, he shouldn't be he orchestrated this.


nsulham, you are making a fatal assumption here: that Manny is a rational individual who will have the maturity to think beyond himself.
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Postby DK » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:04 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:the Mets are always up for a bad contract.


got that right. :-/
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Postby stevelabny » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:14 pm

i love wandering late into threads... so i can see the silliness mount up.

1> the yanks already had their chance to get manny. they feigned mild interest, the redsox panicked and gave him $20mil per year.
Trying to turn the tables and let the yanks bite probably isnt gonna work, as ticked off as George is...Mannys team did WORSE.

2> nobody will claim him off waivers, why bother? better to trade for him and get the sox to pay part of the contract since it will be VERY difficult to have manny be on the team next year from a mental health standpoint.

and my favorite quote

Madison wrote: Vlad's ability also draws fans. So basically, more fans=more revenue. 20 million per season is not out of the question when it comes to a player of this magnitude.


Right, so why didnt he bring more fans to Montreal? Fans don't go to see one good player. And as I love to point out why didn't and don't Giambi, Tejada, Chavez, Zito, Hudson, Mulder bring more fans to Oakland? GOOD fans go see a GOOD team that is MARKETED right. Not every city has good fans, and not every good team is marketed right. Vlad himself will not change either of those problems.

I wish I had the patience to dig through the other thread and see if you were one of the many claiming that most teams can't make enough money to sign good players. Cause it would be odd if you're now telling me that good players partially pay for themselves.

but back to Manny.
He's good. But he ain't worth no 20 million. Any team that claims him has no right to ever cry "Poverty" again.
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Postby blankman » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:24 pm

Transmogrifier wrote:What do Yanks fans think about this? Chance Georgie claims him?

Do you want him?


Personally, I'm not exactly sure whether I want him. Obviously Vlad would be my first choice, but I think if they fail to sign Vlad or Sheffield, fail to trade for Beltran and don't end up moving Soriano to the OF, then I think he might be worth the pickup. The question though for me is, could he play RF at Yankee Stadium (Matsui in CF, Bernie in LF)? I'm not sure whether Manny is worth it but Vlad is a much more enticing option plus he'll come at a lower cost.

So, basically, for me, I'd take him if we can't get Vlad or Beltran or Sheffield or someone else and if Soriano stays at 2B.
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Postby nsulham » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:29 pm

ramble2 wrote:
nsulham wrote:
I don't disagree with you on that but what I am saying is that it's not a scenario where Manny would return and feel "betrayed" because his team tried to give him away, and thus be upset about it.

Manny had a hand in this so if he returns pissed off and upset, he shouldn't be he orchestrated this.


nsulham, you are making a fatal assumption here: that Manny is a rational individual who will have the maturity to think beyond himself.


Agreed. Manny is Manny and is on a different planet than anyone else around him.

Just goes to show that if you can do something exceptionally well, all is forgiven (look at T.O. for example)
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Postby blankman » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:56 pm

Oh, I didn't realize he was only on waivers until Friday. In that case, I absolutely wouldn't want him, while we still have a shot at Vlad and can resign Pettite which should be the #1 priority.
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Postby ROTODOG as guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:00 pm

Greenrider wrote:Ok, so suppose the Sox can extricate themselves from Manny's contract - what could they realistically do with that money this winter?

Vlad is going to have a high price tag with the Sox entering the fray - would Steinbrenner and Angelos really let the Sox walk away with him without at least bidding up the price a little? When all is said and done, I see Vlad getting at least $14-$16 mill a season - does anyone disagree with those figures? Even supposing the Sox can land him, that doesn't leave all that much left for pitching help - Colon and Millwood are almost certainly out of the question, meaning they would have to settle for an Escobar/Ponson at best, and a Lidle at worst, which leaves the team more or less exactly where it was this year, with only a mild pitching improvement. Furthermore, what happens next year? If they go right back and load up salary with Vlad, that means they will never be able to keep Pedro/Lowe/Tek/Ortiz/Nixon/Nomar, which could mean problems in '05.

Another route would be to spread the money around more - let the Dodgers, Orioles, and Yanks fight over Vlad, Tejada, Sheff, and Colon, and then make a move to get a couple of guys like Cameron, Pettitte, Castillo, and Stewart. Could be a smarter move in terms of salary flexibility, but I still can't see what good will come of it in '05.
OK....here goes.Get rid of Manny at 20 mil.Then purchase yourself 1 real #2 pitcher behind pedro for 10-11 million.You then replace Manny with a 2nd tier free agent or thru trade for 5-6 mill.You then get a closer for the remainder.
In this whole process you upgrade the bull pen.You deal Kim(he still has great potential and some value),sauerbeck to address needs.If you get a closer,then you use timlin,williamson and a closer in the ninth.If not the timlin,williamson combo looked great in postseason.
You then let Bill James identify candidates availablle to make a bullpen impact.Once identified you get the 2 -3 guys that have the NADS to be able to pitch in a tough town!NOSAUERBECKS AND KIMS PLEASE!!!
The trades you make should either get you one of the positions I mentioned above or a 2b or some young stock for the system.
The rotation would look like this
1. Pedro
2.Free Agent
3.Lowe
4.wakefield
5.Bronson arroyo
With the same core of offense only missing MAnny and Walker and a stronger rotation and bullpen,they should be real strong again next year.Hopefully thru this whole process you can grab a couple nice minor leaguers. ILOVE THIS STUFF!!!!!
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Postby Madison » Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:51 pm

stevelabny wrote:and my favorite quote

Madison wrote: Vlad's ability also draws fans. So basically, more fans=more revenue. 20 million per season is not out of the question when it comes to a player of this magnitude.


Right, so why didnt he bring more fans to Montreal? Fans don't go to see one good player. And as I love to point out why didn't and don't Giambi, Tejada, Chavez, Zito, Hudson, Mulder bring more fans to Oakland? GOOD fans go see a GOOD team that is MARKETED right. Not every city has good fans, and not every good team is marketed right. Vlad himself will not change either of those problems.

I wish I had the patience to dig through the other thread and see if you were one of the many claiming that most teams can't make enough money to sign good players. Cause it would be odd if you're now telling me that good players partially pay for themselves.

but back to Manny.
He's good. But he ain't worth no 20 million. Any team that claims him has no right to ever cry "Poverty" again.


Well first of all what makes you think Vlad didn't draw fans in Montreal? Yes, their attendance was poor, but how much worse would it have been without Vlad? I guarantee attendance would have been even lower without Vlad.

What you are basically saying is that no one buys a ticket to see a good player play. That's crazy talk.

As to the other part, no. I was one of the ones saying that teams should spend some money on talent. The teams have the money. I could care less if they cry poverty. No MLB team is losing money, I just don't buy into it. You must have confused me with someone else on that one, not that it would have been that difficult to check before accusing me of it.
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Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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